Whistler/Waxy:

While I understand where you're coming from with how you viewed my response, you again took what I said and completely missunderstood it. I'm not sure how, but you take something so easy to understand and complicate it.

Here's what I meant:

If you, Waxy, raped a girl, got caught, and were facing punishment, you'd be scared out of your mind. I, in absolutely no way, said that marriage is prison. I'm a very happily married man right now. My wife would actually agree with my post. The rapist would be in his own prison by what he did. He would have to live with the woman he violated for the rest of his life while being watched like a hawk by the girls father, family, other people, and the person who sentenced him. The man would be in absolute hell.

1. His raping days would be over. If he raped again, he would surely die as he was married.
2. There's absolutely no way the man would have any freedom while alive and with this woman. He would be eyed everywhere he went. He couldn't get away with anything.
3. You would have to pay the father restitution for your deeds and it would forever be held over your head.
4. Think of a murderer. The murderer kills this person, gets caught, and now has to pay restitution to his family and serve them for the rest of his known life. In the same way, the rapist isn't getting off easy. He has to totally turn his life around in order to present it in a fasion worthy of acceptance to the people he wronged so harshly. He would owe, in other words, the rest of his life to this girl he raped.
5. Everyone would look at him as a rapist among other bad things. He would never get ahead in life because of this 1 time he messed up. By raping this girl, he's now "screwed" for the rest of his life.
6. I don't know why God's law is the way it is. Maybe through this command, this man would be able to change his ways and become a responsible husband to the woman he raped. Maybe God was trying to say 'Instead of killing him and sending him where he belongs, I'm going to give him another chance at life.' Like you said Bigd, divine wisdom and mercy...

Does that answer your confusion?



Now then to the girl. She is totally protected by her family and friends from this rapist. He owes her restitution for the wrong he did in her life. In being married, he will have the rest of his known life to make up for it. I'm not sure what's worse, being sent to prison for 20 years, or being a "slave" to these people for the rest of his life.

also: what Jimmy Dean and gdub said

 

Maybe the woman I watched being bitten by a snake she was worshiping while speaking in tongues wasn't all that strange.....

 

You think this guy has read "The Handmaiden's Tale"?

 

Since the Old Testament God had maturity similar to that of a spoiled 2 year old, this is perfectly logical.

Of course, the Bible treats women as property, so this is not surprising.

 

The natural man does not recieve the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spitiruall discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
If you do not have a right relationship with God then he cannot reveal Himself to you when you read His word. This isn't just a book that you can bebop around in and find certain things to expound upon or find fault with. It was written to be an instruction book for God's people. And the old testament message is one of a disobedient people who just didn't get it. Although there are some great men in it, basically it sets the stage for Jesus to come and for the dispensation of God's grace on all people which is justified by faith.
In the New testament adultry begins in the mind and if you are thinking about it you are guity of the sin. If you realize that every action begins with a thought then this should make sense. Jesus also said we should have one wife, and be dedicated to her, honor her ect.
Just grabbing a verse or two and making an arguement about it is called proof-texting and any savvy Bible scholar is discouraged from doing that. Instead you should dig in and find everything the whole bible has to say about it and then try to understand the whole subject. I have found that this also requires an understanding of the customs of the day which are woven through the fabric of the stories many times.

 

So from what you originally posted, Clinton didn't commit adultery? Sure he did:

Your verse has to do with a single man that rapes a victim. He then gets punished for it.

Clinton was a MARRIED man. Though his marriage didn't mean much to him, he was married. That goes under an entirely different set of laws. Marriage laws. So then, he did, according to the Bible, commit adultery.

 

Spoken like a true believer

Actually it wasn't God that was immature, it was us. The sad thing -- we still are 1000's or years later.

1. Where in the world did you see that?
2. Worshiping a snake -- strange. Speaking in tongues -- perfectly normal. Read Acts 2 for confirmation of speaking in tongues being Biblically correct.

Kind of makes me think...

A serpent decieved man in the beginning, and still today people are decieved by the same thing.

 

True,
Sorry but the bible meant that any man, married or single.
Polygamy in case you hadn't noticed was considered normal back then. As was the idea that a woman was equivilant to property owned. Actually I can't remmember whereit says it but somewhere in the bible it talks about women being traded for livestock.

But we are living in the New testament now right? So The old testament is bunk now? Anything that is contradicted in the old testament by the new testament is canceled out? You guys are going to have to make up your mind. Is every word of the bible words to live by, or did God realize his imperfections and sent his son down to rewrite things and fix it?

This is getting funny. I point out something wrong with the bible Morally speaking, and you tell me "wait you can't go by that part of the bible, you have to go by this part" Well if I start pointing out problems and contradictions in the new testament, you will probably say "no wait, you have to go by what it says in the old testament". This seesaw of morals that is the bible is so typical of religion, just like the torah and the quran. They were tools of the educated to control the un-educated masses back when the earth was still flat and the sun and stars revolved around the earth. Can you imagine if their wasn't a seperation of church and state? You would still have slavery, and women would still be property. You could have 30 wives if you could afford it, And if they cheated on you or got raped, they would be damaged goods. So you could just sell them to the rapist or stone them both to death.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by true4.2
[B]Spoken like a true believer

1. Where in the world did you see that?
2. Worshiping a snake -- strange. Speaking in tongues -- perfectly normal. Read Acts 2 for confirmation of speaking in tongues being Biblically correct.

Georgia near the Alabama border in 1983. A friend took me to a variety of fundamentalist worships of both black and white congregations. The snake routine was in a private caucasian home. Not unusual, I was told, for that area. If memory serves me, it was about facing Satan.

Normal is open for definition. In the social after the snake ritual, I became positive there were none of the small congregation that I'd cast a vote for in a public election. They made the survivalists of N. Idaho, where I was living, 20-miles away, at the time of the Ruby Ridge incident, seem like highly educated liberals.

 

I saw a thing on TV about those people that used poisonous snakes in their"worship". Many of them are bitten and some die. I am pretty sure this isn't what the Bible meant when it said you shall take up snakes and not be bitten. Paul got chomped that one time and just shook it off while every one was waiting for him to drop, but people that find these little incedents as a way to God do not represent Christianity even if they cliam to.
The old testament was not really bunk, and most Christians probably don't totally understand everything that happened or why. But I look at it as God using imperfect man to show His perfect will. The Law was introduced in the old testament, but it was a flawed system in that it only defined sin but didn't offer escape from a sinful past. One thing about God is that He is God and we can't hope to undestand everything about Him or all his decisions any more than your 6 year old would understand all that you know or require of them as their parent.
If you really are interested in what the Bible has to say about living today then get into the New testament and read it like a letter a loving parent would write to his son or daughter. If you just want to find ammo against the religious people who fall short of what God intended for them to be, then you will find it. Religion by it's very description falls way short of what God intended, and I do not consider myself religious. But trying to live the life God intended is what it is all about. There will always be people who claim to represent God that really don't and even those who are sincere in their walk will occasionally fail or get a little off track.

 

I would contend that my understanding is the simple, logical one, you are the one that has complicated the issue by introducing a religious context.

Quote:

What I meant:

If you, Waxy, raped a girl, got caught, and were facing punishment, you'd be scared out of your mind. I, in absolutely no way, said that marriage is prison. I'm a very happily married man right now. My wife would actually agree with my post. The rapist would be in his own prison by what he did. He would have to live with the woman he violated for the rest of his life while being watched like a hawk by the girls father, family, other people, and the person who sentenced him. The man would be in absolute hell.

1. His raping days would be over. If he raped again, he would surely die as he was married.
2. There's absolutely no way the man would have any freedom while alive and with this woman. He would be eyed everywhere he went. He couldn't get away with anything.
3. You would have to pay the father restitution for your deeds and it would forever be held over your head.
4. Think of a murderer. The murderer kills this person, gets caught, and now has to pay restitution to his family and serve them for the rest of his known life. In the same way, the rapist isn't getting off easy. He has to totally turn his life around in order to present it in a fasion worthy of acceptance to the people he wronged so harshly. He would owe, in other words, the rest of his life to this girl he raped.
5. Everyone would look at him as a rapist among other bad things. He would never get ahead in life because of this 1 time he messed up. By raping this girl, he's now "screwed" for the rest of his life.
6. I don't know why God's law is the way it is. Maybe through this command, this man would be able to change his ways and become a responsible husband to the woman he raped. Maybe God was trying to say 'Instead of killing him and sending him where he belongs, I'm going to give him another chance at life.' Like you said Bigd, divine wisdom and mercy...

Does that answer your confusion?

NO. You could sugar coat and re-write this 100 times and it would not change the fact that I think it's an incredibly twisted view point. IMHO, you are trying to defend something that is indefensible.

Apply it to anything else - theft, murder, cheating, etc... Is the knowledge that someone commited one of these crimes a punishment? Do you think that criminals today care if society knows about their crimes. Should they simply walk, their only punishment being their own guilt and the evil stares of society?

What if the woman doesn't want to be married to this man?

What if the woman is rich, and the man can't pay restitution? Seems like raping a rich woman would be the way to go.

Why bother going through the proper channels? Just find the best looking, richest woman ain town and rape her. Voila! You're set for life.

CRAZY.

Also, this whole scenario is based on the woman being unmarried.

What if the woman was married?

If someone raped your wife, what happens then? Do you give her over to the man? Does he pay you and then continue to walk the streets? Would that satisfy you? Your wife? Do you believe that would be right?

Quote:

Now then to the girl. She is totally protected by her family and friends from this rapist. He owes her restitution for the wrong he did in her life. In being married, he will have the rest of his known life to make up for it. I'm not sure what's worse, being sent to prison for 20 years, or being a "slave" to these people for the rest of his life.

also: what Jimmy Dean and gdub said

Totally protected? HE LIVES WITH HER NOW. They're MARRIED, he can force himself on her every night and it's A-OK.

He could make up for it, or he could just carry on being a deadbeat with a wife he takes for granted or resents. I know where my money would go.

Going to prison true4.2, and I defy you, or any other free thinking rational person to think otherwise.

Waxy

 

shutup

 

CRJ900,
would you like to contribute to this conversation, or just content yourself on two syllable utterances?

 

Waxy:

It seems no matter how hard I try to defend a point, there is no ultimate answer in my definition. I'm simply trying relay what could have been God's plan for the law at hand. I never said in any way that I agreed to it or would be ok with it if it happened to me or my wife. That's just what the law was in the old testiment. If God made it a law, then IMHO there had to be a reason for it. He wouldn't just make a law like that for the heck of it. There is either something we are missing in that 1 law, or something we're missing in the whole scheme of things. I'll continue this later.

Again Waxy, I understand why you would see my reply as odd or unjust, but like I said, there has to be a reason to it. Maybe I don't know exactly what it is, but it is there.

In this day and age, there almost isn't anything that is "indefensible."

 

If it don't fit.......it just don't fit!!!!
Here’s what the problem is with religion: It forces one belief system upon another belief system or upon a system of no beliefs until it scrapes hard against all boundaries and forces one into submission. This applied force can last for seconds or centuries depending on the participants. It can either enable or disable. It can be strong and restrictive while appearing to be soft and encouraging. It can cause people to want to believe in something that they would otherwise never consider. It can cause brother to hate brother. It can give governments the power to change its foundation for improvement or allow it to remain stale and void, crumbling to its knees. It can cause or facilitate the need for more religion. When this happens it will then cause the enforcer to realize one day that what he believed was not real and that those upon whom he had forced to believe this were right to begin with. Religion can cause one to wonder aimlessly from belief to belief until one day they no longer have faith in anything.