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ABS issue?

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Old Feb 3, 2018 | 08:35 PM
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ABS issue?

I have been having problems with rotors warping on 2002 excursion diesel for years. I was hoping for any good ideas. I have replaced front hubs/sensors and rear VSS a couple times. I have a intermittent ABS light on the dash that seems to be random. I have never had any speedometer problems. I finally upgraded to a full Willwood package from TCE thinking the ford spec rotors were just too small for the X. I now have warped Willwoods. I was thinking a problem with the ABS module/system itself, but I am at the limit of my knowledge. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Rod
 
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Old Feb 3, 2018 | 08:53 PM
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I don't see how the ABS pump causes warped rotors in your scenario...or any scenario for that matter. It doesn't make pressure...the hydro-boost and master cylinder make the pressure for the system, and the ABS pump modulates it to enhance braking in certain situations.

Are your brake shields all intact? What kind of brake lines are you using, and how old? How often are you flushing/bleeding the brake fluid, and to what extent? Complete replacement or just rotating out fluid from the caliper chambers?

I've not had a warped rotor yet, but I have had problems with slide pins (my own dumb fault - too much grease) and caliper pistons sticking.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 05:36 AM
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I've never had a warped rotor either, and the majority of EX's my miles are heavy towing (although the trailer takes care of it's own braking needs the Ex does work harder in "panic stop" situations).
How abusive are you on your brakes? Not busting your stones, its just that some folks tend to be very hard brakers as compared to those like me that tend to be easier on the pedal. And of course the dreaded two footed drivers that rest a left foot on the pedal sometimes, those drivers can really heat up a set of brakes doing that.
The Wilwood setup you are using, does it require the 20" wheels for clearance over the larger brakes? The ones I have seen do look like a sweet (but pricey) upgrade.
Another thing to consider, not all "warped rotors" are in fact warped. Sometimes it is actually an accumulation of brake pad material (I think it termed "cementite") transferred onto/into the rotor which happens after a hard (very hot) braking event where the vehicle sits still with the brakes still firmly applied. The heat allows some small bits of the pad material to bond/blend with the rotor face, a combination of the high heat and applied pressure. This spot of transferred material will, under braking feel like a warped rotor as it will give a pulsing feel due to the differing friction between the clean rotor areas and the spots of transferred material. One way to help avoid this is to gently "creep" forward after a hard stop, only a few inches of rolling will keep any single spot of the rotor from seeing the steady heat and pressure. It's a habit that I have ben using for years on all of my vehicles and I have never had any type of "warped rotor" issues and I get pretty long pad life too.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 06:21 AM
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Thank you for the reply’s. It really helps to get other thoughts. I am glad neither of you have had problems. That makes me realize I definitely have a issue. I have had this problem from day 1. My heat shields are intack. My brake lines are new with the Wilwoods about 1-1/12 years old and they are stainless lines that came with the kit. I had actually replaced them with stainless lines years ago with stock rotors thinking that was the problem. My fluid is new with the Willwoods also. We bled the entire system and replaced while installing the willwoods. I guess I am not the easiest driver but well aware of pad transfer and have been stoping short and creeping since installing the willwoods. TCE performance warned and educated me when I bought the system. The warping or pad transfer I am feeling is like the abs light on the dash very inconsistent. Over the years whether it was stock rotars or Willwoods sometimes they last 3 months with no problem. Other times they warp in two weeks or in one instance 5 miles after new rotars were installed. When the Willwoods were installed didn’t have a problem for like 9-12 months. The sensors have been replaced with oem ford sensors front and rear several times to rule that out. I think this means we are down to wiring or ABS. My next step was to pull the fuse on the ABS and try it for a while. Is it possible for the ABS sensors or computer to tell th system to make pressure?
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 07:06 AM
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The pressure in the brake system comes from you pressing the brake pedal only. The hydroboost unit is a hydraulic unit which the power steering pump supplies fluid to. You depress the brake pedal, and the hydraulic system amplifies your foot pressure. Your ABS, when active, "modulates" the pressure like Nikmike mentioned, giving you that pulsating feeling and noise when you are pressing on the pedal, press harder the pulses get stronger and louder, lighten up and the and they get weaker and quieter, take your foot off the pedal and it stops. It doesn't sound like your ABS has been active at all, test it out by finding a nice pothole at 35mph or higher, apply the brakes firmly just before hitting the pothole, when you hit that pothole your wheel will want to lock up, but the vehicle is still moving, the braking system sees this and will activate the ABS.
You didn't mention if the Wildwood package included calipers. 2 years ago I was towing a small travel trailer through the Blue ridge, and upper WV mountains, my perfect brakes revealed a nasty vibration after all that braking with the elevations. I either had or did have a stuck caliper that warped my rotor.
Is your warp showing up when the rotor is on a brake lathe just before turning it?
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 07:57 AM
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Thanks for the thoughts. I will have to try the pothole test. I can say I don’t think I have ever heard the ABS make a sound. The system did come with new much larger calipers. It stoped like a sports car before the shaking issue. I didn’t see the rotars on the laith myself,but the friend of mine that turned them pointed out that he cut so much off to get the flat that it cut the slots off completely on a part of the rotars.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RodSC
Thanks for the thoughts. I will have to try the pothole test. I can say I don’t think I have ever heard the ABS make a sound. The system did come with new much larger calipers. It stoped like a sports car before the shaking issue. I didn’t see the rotars on the laith myself,but the friend of mine that turned them pointed out that he cut so much off to get the flat that it cut the slots off completely on a part of the rotars.
With that said, you should have the rotors thickness checked, and see if they are even still within manufacture operating limits. If he had to cut that much off just to get them true, you might have had a defective rotor, or it got extremely hot and warped very bad.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 08:08 AM
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I agree. It didn’t last one week after he turned them before shaking again so I am ordering two more next week. Love my truck, but this has been the biggest aggravation since I have owned it.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RodSC
I agree. It didn’t last one week after he turned them before shaking again so I am ordering two more next week. Love my truck, but this has been the biggest aggravation since I have owned it.
I think I'd be looking at those calipers. Check the floating pins, and check the piston(s). Wouldn't hurt to bleed again.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 08:23 AM
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I will do it just for the heck of it. It is a good point. It was almost 1 year after I installed the Willwoods before I had the first shake. That was by far the longest anything had ever lasted. It certainly can’t hurt to check and bleed all 4. I will get back as soon as I have checked the ABS system to see if it is even working also. Being the ABS light comes on and resets itself periodically any thoughts what I could leave hooked to the truck to read the code while driving before it disappears.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 12:09 PM
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Not all code readers will read the ABS. You will have to locate a brand that will.

I worked in a brake shop long ago. We used to turn rotors all the time on most brake jobs. That is not the case anymore within the industry. Most brake rotor manufacturers are making the brake rotors so thin now, if you turn them once you are out of tolerances. I do not EVER turn the rotors on my cars/trucks nowadays. If there is a problem with a rotor, I buy new.

If you follow the break in procedures that sets the pads to the profile of the existing rotor, your brakes will work fine, provided the rotors don't have any deep grooves or surface irregularities that would prevent this. If I can catch a fingernail in a groove, the rotors get recycled.

Tom brought up a good point on driving style/braking style. Everyone is different, and all those different people get different life out of their brakes as a result. I see people all the time that have their front wheels COVERED in brake dust, while the rear wheels are shiny and clean. Those kinds of people are having problems others are not. I have a female family member (not my wife), who is pedal-to-the-metal from every stop and waits to the last second to apply the brakes before stops signs, turns or lights. Over the years, she has gone through brakes, shocks and other auto parts very fast.
 
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Old Feb 4, 2018 | 12:28 PM
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I agree with everything you are saying. I need to get a code reader next. I have not had rotars turned since I was a teenager until now. I just turned these to try and see if we had solved the problems before ordering a new set of the Willwoods. I didn’t have any idea the thickness of rotars had changed over the years. I am pretty careful on driving habits. I can’t stand people that ride others bumpers so I stay pretty far back and coast a lot to most stops plus creep a little while stopped. Once I read the code I am going to go over the entire system checking pins and pistons in the calipers. Thanks for everyone’s good thought. Please let me know if anyone thinks of anything else.
 
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Old Mar 10, 2018 | 06:14 AM
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Update

after everyone’s good thoughts I started over and went through everything. I also spoke with Todd at TCE performance where I purchased the brakes. He was convinced that my problem was totaling a bedding ( break in) issue. We had discussed that a few times and dismissed it as we followed the bedding procedures he sent. After going back through everything I cornered my in-house mechanics and asked a lot of questions. The only one that is important is they finally admitted they were not bedding the breaks at all like I did the first time I installed the system. That solved the problem of why it didn’t shake for a long time when I first installed. I have now bedded properly and seemed to not be having a issue even though it has only been a week. I think this was chalked up to me getting not correct info from the mechanics. As part of the bedding procedure I stopped from 50-5MPH as fast as possible and that tested the anti lock which is working fine. Also the ABS light has not been on during that week. While going back through everything and paying close attention while driving I noticed every time I ran over water or it rained the abs light came on. We checked all the wires/connections and shot non conductive grease in all connections. I think that has solved it. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and help. Hopefully it will continue the way it is now. If I have another problem I will update.

Rod
 
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