Ok I've edited out the volume part of my post until father research is done, but was post #15 shows there where three different pumps available , not just two.

Back on topic weather or not the FT and FE pumps have the same volume or not is still in question.

Also with statements that all factory FE pumps have the same oil flow volume with different pressure ratings, why would anyone want to install a high volume pump in one of these engines, especially with Ford recommending a larger than stock oil pan for a pump that has less volume than a M57HV.

I also find it hard to believe that with all of the engine building info Ford included in the High-Per Parts catalogs (long considered the holy grail of FE engine building info) that they would exaggerate about the use of certain oil pumps just to make a less than $20 sell.

 

I did a little digging and yes there were indeed 3 different stock FE oil pump configurations but all three shared the exact same parts list except for the relief valve spring assemblies. The 406,427 and 428CJ pumps came with longer relief valve springs therefore they build more pressure before by-passing. That is why they are considered high pressure pump designs. Since these high pressure pumps go to a higher RPM before by-passing they obviously had more flow above the stock pump's by-pass RPM. So in that respect they do supply the engine with a higher volume of oil than the stock pump at higher RPMs. They all share the exact same rotor design and therefore they all shared the same internal pumping volume. The stock FT and the aftermarket FE high volume pumps have thicker than stock rotors and therefore have more internal pumping volume for more GPM at all engine speeds.

C8AZ-6600-A - Standard oil pump. Standard relief valve spring.
C3AZ-6600-A - 406/427 oil pump. Longer relief valve spring and different relief valve plunger.
C9ZZ-6600-A - 428CJ/SCJ oil pump. Longer relief valve spring.

 

[QUOTE=Destroked 450;17098215]
Back on topic weather or not the FT and FE pumps have the same volume or not is still in question.
[QUOTE]

The FT engines used a true high volume pump design that has thicker rotors for more internal pumping volume than the FE pumps. It needed this extra volume because many of the heavy duty trucks came equipped with air brakes that required engine mounted oil cooled air compressors. So the pump had to supply not only the engine but also external air compressor circuit. This extra volume puts a lot more torque load on the pump's drive shaft and that is why Ford went to a 5/16" shaft vs 1/4" as used for the FE pumps.

Since Ford never offered a high volume pump for the FE the NASCAR and NHRA racers used to run the FT pumps on their 427s to take advantage of the higher flow rate at all RPMs.

 

Good info, thanks.
Now for the final question does the FT pump flow 25% more volume like a M57HV or more like the 10% I've always been told.

Found a couple of M57A FT pumps yesterday, as soon a I get a M57 I'll measure them and see what the difference is.
Any one know what the cut out pressure is for the M57HV, I'm thinking 72 psi but it's been a long time since I've had one. I know the M57A FT pump has the same 60 psi cut out as a M57.

 

It did not take long for guys to figure out that the "High Ouptut" pump assemblies only had different relief valve spring/plunger assemblies than the stock pump. So many guys were going their local dealership parts department and asking about buying just the longer spring/plunger assembly. Ford got so many requests for this that they did create a service part number for it (maybe Bill can provide this service part number?). Sometime in the late '60s one of the higher up bean counters at corporate got wind of this and made engineering obsolete the longer service spring/plunger assembly. They could make a lot more profit on a $15 pump assembly sale than on a $1 spring/plunger assembly sale.

So "exaggerate" was probably the wrong word but they did want you to spend the $15 to upgrade to the "High Output" pump assembly and they DID NOT want you to know that you could do the same thing yourself with a $1 part.

 

I am not sure how much more GPM the stock FT pump provides vs stock FE. It was significant enough that Ford decided to put a huge full sump pan on the FT engines. I am not sure what the factory fill was but I know guys that have used this FT pan with 12 quarts!


I tend to ignore GPM ratings for comparison purposes unless the RPM and by-pass pressure are also listed. Both pressure and GPM will increase with increasing RPM until the by-pass valve opens at which point pressure stays the same. As the RPMs increase past that point the GPMs continue to increase but the GPM delivered to the engine stays the same. The additional GPMs get dumped directly back into the pan. It would be awesome if Melling would provide graphs of pressure and volume vs RPM for their pumps. Or at least max PSI and max GPM (not including by-pass GPM).

 

Very few FE engine builds actually require a HV pump. Here are a few of the scenarios where a HV pump would be required to prevent potential oil starvation issues:


1) Engine will see 7,000 RPM or more.
2) Engine is built with large main bearing clearances (.003" or more).
3) Engine will have an external oil cooler.


Usually 1 and 2 go together as the high HP, high RPM builds always have bigger bearing clearances if built properly.


For anything else the HP pump will be more than adequate IMHO. Ford would have never even considered offering a high volume pump for mass production engines because of the potential warranty claims (pumping the stock 5 qt pan dry).


I know of three professional FE engine builders that do automatically provide the HV pumps for mild and medium horsepower FE builds but they all admit it's not because they think it's necessary. It's because their customers all expect them to use the HV pumps and these pumps provide increased oil pressure at all RPMs and their customers see that high oil pressure as a sign that they received a quality engine build.


All that being I also have fallen into this trap too and I have purchased HV pumps for builds that I knew did not really need them. It's human nature to want the best, highest performing parts for your engine. If running the HV pump make sure to always use 6 quarts in the stock pan. A windage tray is always recommended when you move the oil closer to the crank throws. If you are road racing or drag racing then get an aftermarket oil pan with internal sheet metal baffles to keep the oil around the pick-up to keep it wet for all high G-load conditions.

 

[QUOTE=Destroked 450;17098215]
Also with statements that all factory FE pumps have the same oil flow volume with different pressure ratings, why would anyone want to install a high volume pump in one of these engines, especially with Ford recommending a larger than stock oil pan for a pump that has less volume than a M57HV.
[QUOTE]


Very few FE engine builds actually require a HV pump. Here are a few of the scenarios where a HV pump would be required to prevent potential oil starvation issues:


1) Engine will see 7,000 RPM or more.
2) Engine is built with large main bearing clearances (.003" or more).
3) Engine will have an external oil cooler.


Usually 1 and 2 go together as the high HP, high RPM builds always have bigger bearing clearances if built properly.


For anything else the HP pump will be more than adequate IMHO. Ford would have never even considered offering a high volume pump for mass production engines because of the potential warranty claims (pumping the stock 5 qt pan dry).


I know of three professional FE engine builders that do automatically provide the HV pumps for mild and medium horsepower FE builds but they all admit it's not because they think it's necessary. It's because their customers all expect them to use the HV pumps and these pumps provide increased oil pressure at all RPMs and their customers see that high oil pressure as a sign that they received a quality engine build.


All that being I also have fallen into this trap too and I have purchased HV pumps for builds that I knew did not really need them. It's human nature to want the best, highest performing parts for your engine. If running the HV pump make sure to always use 6 quarts in the stock pan. A windage tray is always recommended when you move the oil closer to the crank throws. If you are road racing or drag racing then get an aftermarket oil pan with internal sheet metal baffles to keep the oil around the pick-up to keep it wet for all high G-load conditions.

 

Years ago I was drag racing a Boss 302, during a engine refresh and cam change I installed a high volume oil pump, we where using a windage tray and the Boss 302 baffled 6 qrt oil pan.
A short time later a lifter failed and wiped a lobe on the cam, I always blamed the HV pump for to much oil causing the HP1 racing filter to bypass and send all that metal through the engine, it completely destroyed the crank but we saved the block with a repair sleeve.
At the time Melling stated the M68A Boss 302 oil pump had 10% more pressure and 10% more flow over a standard M68 small block oil pump, we put a M68A in the engine and raced it for several seasons without any oil pressure or oil starvation issues.
The final setup had the car launching at 7500 and shifting at 9200.

I've never put one of the 25% over high volume pumps in a engine since.

 

This has been an amazing thread for me to follow. There has been an unbelievable amount of technical data and practical experience blended into the discussion. Makes me feel unqualified to even ask questions.

So "oil filter bypass"... does my FE has one? I always thought the oil had no option but to go through the filter.

 

Most all automotive oil filters have a built in bypass which is nothing more than a spring in the end of the filter. This spring is weaker than the oil pumps relief valve there forth oil pressure pushes the filter back enough for oil to bypass the filtering media and continue on to the engine.
When the oil is cold or the filter is getting full of trash if there was no way for the oil to bypass the filter the engine would be starved of oil resulting in bearing failure or the pressure would blow the filter off or burst it. None of these would be a good thing
There are some engines that have a filter bypass in the oiling system and there forth don't need one in the filter. My 5.9 Cummins has a bypass valve in the oil filter adapter that mounts over the oil cooler.