Token Christianity
#31
08-13-2003, 01:06 PM
Token Christianity
If there is no coming of Christ, what do we as believers in Christ have to live for?
The validation of my life does not come from being saved due to my acceptance of Jesus as my savior. It doesn't come from the Second Coming.
The validation of my life comes from being and from living a manifestation of God's ideals here on earth, from living my belief system.
(Meaning of course a tiny, nearly invisible fraction of that manifestation, one of the myriad).
It may seem like I am splitting hairs. In fact, there are fundamental differences between these two world-views, as this very thread proves. This very difference above is IMO the key reason Christianity has collapsed somewhere in the last 2,000 years. The source of validation has been displaced. Consequently, the lives of the participants have become invalidated with mythological belief systems. What I am ultimately telling you is that in our Dark Age, you can still find non-token validation for your life, a true source of purpose instead of seeking validation in places where it may not exist (but then again, it may). In that context, this message is a message of hope and ressurection, not darkness.
Last edited by carpe_diem; 08-13-2003 at 01:08 PM.
#33
08-13-2003, 05:21 PM
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Token Christianity
fish dude, Ths time, I agree with you.
I do not see how, Carpi, you can see that the Second Coming has already happened. No, in my opinion, the apocolypse has not come. It will happen VERY soon however, sooner, I belive, than any of you may realize. It is being set up today, it started years ago the final stage, and unfortuanately, or fortuantely, cannot decide, the U.S. is helping it along. The last sign that it is upon us is the next man who tries to reunite the Old Roman Empire. (p.s. Hitler was the ninth, there are to be 10. with the last 3 being from a similiar region....the first was the German guy who started WWI, the second was, well Hitler.., and the third I fear is already coming to power, I need to do some research on German politicians, but look at it. Europe is now united, or in the process of, with Germany coming to be the powerhouse of the United Europe...that scres the **** out of me, for I fear I will see the collapse of my great country....at least it will be replaceed with a better one...[Hopefully with more Ford trucks, a few for everyone?]) Sorry, not to start the WWIII myself, but the Second Coming has not come yet.
Jimmy Dean
I do not see how, Carpi, you can see that the Second Coming has already happened. No, in my opinion, the apocolypse has not come. It will happen VERY soon however, sooner, I belive, than any of you may realize. It is being set up today, it started years ago the final stage, and unfortuanately, or fortuantely, cannot decide, the U.S. is helping it along. The last sign that it is upon us is the next man who tries to reunite the Old Roman Empire. (p.s. Hitler was the ninth, there are to be 10. with the last 3 being from a similiar region....the first was the German guy who started WWI, the second was, well Hitler.., and the third I fear is already coming to power, I need to do some research on German politicians, but look at it. Europe is now united, or in the process of, with Germany coming to be the powerhouse of the United Europe...that scres the **** out of me, for I fear I will see the collapse of my great country....at least it will be replaceed with a better one...[Hopefully with more Ford trucks, a few for everyone?]) Sorry, not to start the WWIII myself, but the Second Coming has not come yet.
Jimmy Dean
#34
08-13-2003, 05:58 PM
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well...I know we all gotta have some different opinions and beliefs at times...that's what makes the forums so interesting!
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08-13-2003, 06:37 PM
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08-13-2003, 06:43 PM
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#37
08-13-2003, 06:50 PM
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were all you guys while I was getting flamed up like a chestnut in that other thread???
BDV
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08-13-2003, 07:00 PM
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#39
08-13-2003, 07:38 PM
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Token Christianity
Originally posted by fisher_of_man
wow.... I started out like many thinking that carpe had something and the more I read, the more worried I become
.....I agree that religion in itself is not as important to people today and that for many "being Christian" might be a social "thing"...the thing to be affiliated with.
Snipped
wow.... I started out like many thinking that carpe had something and the more I read, the more worried I become
.....I agree that religion in itself is not as important to people today and that for many "being Christian" might be a social "thing"...the thing to be affiliated with. Snipped
Wow sorry I missed this thread. From what I've read I have to believe I'm in some good company. There doesn't seem to be anything not covered (unless I missed it sorry if i did)
For those who believe Christ has already come....I'll pray for you, I don't see how you can have the desire to face a new day.
#40
08-13-2003, 07:49 PM
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Token Christianity
I find this discussion as a way for people to justify their stumbling block.
]
Yea of little faith.
Originally posted by carpe_diem
If this posts sounds controversial, it's because it was meant to be. I wanted a attention-catching title: The death of Christianity, token/paper christians, collapse and ressurection.
For a number of years now, I have been thinking how Christianity has been utterly ineffective in dealing with the problems confronting this world.
Why do you think that? I find the reasons you have listed to be rather shallow. Have you seen the studies where they determined how life would be today if Christ had not appeared?]
I was wondering why that was. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that somewhere in the last 2,000 years, the religion died and what we have here does not resemble Christianity anymore.
So if you believe in Christ, his comment that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against his church was wasted breath. Which then inturn would make most of everything else he said nonsense.
I've come to realize I am not a Christian. I don't identify with what we think of as Christianity. Don't misunderstand. I don't question the divinity of Jesus, the correctness of the old testatment and other key beliefs.
I find this statement interesting. You want it both ways.
For the first 300 years, the teachings of Jesus were passed on verbally.No they were not. People were writing the Gospels long before then.
Somewhere around 300AD, they had council of Nacea which created the Bible.So the Toran is what? Chopped liver? It is a part of the Bible isn't it? And it was written long before Christ every showed up.
But, somehow the Bible has become an idol which we worship. So has the church. Contemporary/token Christians worship these two idols but they don't live a Christian life. Understand - the Bible is not God. The church is not God. These are meaningless items without the substance of faith.
We worhip the Bible and the Church??? Which faith are talking about? I have not seen this. I have seen the Bible used as a reference and considered a Holy Book, but worshipped?? Maybe you should define worship.
The term "Christian" means "little Christ". Faith means a person who lives a Christ-like life, emulating Christ - not perfectly of course, but emulating nonetheless. What kind of life is this? It is a life of unconditional, on-going self-sacrifice. Look at the lives of the original Christians. They were killed for their faith in the hostile Roman empire.
So unless we go out and die for Christ, we have failed? Mother Teresa was unfit to be called a Christian? Not all of the early Christians were killed by lions or Romans. Are they failed Christians?? Today's attacks may not be as direct as being feed to the lions but they are still there.
Now look at 21st century America. What we have does not even closely resemble Christianity - and I don't mean the godless masses, I mean those in the Church. They don't live their faith. They don't live a Christian life. 99.9% of it is entirely token, they are paper Christians - in word and not in deed. Take away the empty label and they are just like anyone else. The difference between "Christians" and the rest of them is like Coke and Pepsi, different packaging but same substance.
Then what are you doing to correct it? If you have been granted such insight into peoples lives then you must have some solutions so that we all do not perish. If you love your fellow man, you care about him and his salvation.
These token Christians have done more damage to true faith that diametrically opposing ideologies (nihilism, egoism). This I agree with. However the same people are present in all Faiths.
Christianity hasn't just been defeated, it has been subverted from the inside. There is nothing left. The whole thing needs to be built anew. There is nothing left? Nothing at all. Then how do we know that you know what really happened 2000 years ago?
The Bible defines many things about Christianity. It is a self-sacrificing lifestyle. It must always cost you something. Donating $20 per week to your church is not a sacrifice, it is a token which offends God. Christianity is a token today. _Living_ your faith is a not a token. One's entire life must be geared according to faith.Stewardship involves more than money. If I give $20 a week to the church but spend my nights and weekends helping others then I am giving more than money. I am giving love.
The ultimate litmus test of your faith is, when someone looks at you, it should immediately be obvious that you are a person who is living your faith. And when that's not the case, no superfluous labels are necessary or desired. So the first 30 years of Christ's life was wasted and meaningless because they didn't realize that he was a christian. Your point here is not valid. I find good people all the time that others think are cruel indifferent or whatever. You are trying to define Christianity to your standard.
Always remember, a person's actions speak way louder than any token gestures you can make. The contemporary Christians have become "the world", married to the world, and happy with the engagement, donating crumbs off their table, only to appease their conscience and nothing more. These people are worse than dishonest, they are deluded. They think they are righteous, but they are the antithesis of goodness. What makes a person a Christian is how he lives his life, or as Jesus said, you will know the tree by its fruit. Parts of this are correct. But you are painting with a broad brush.
Somehow the whole Christian thing has been reworked for the lowest common denominator. Confess your sins, accept Jesus and you are saved. These are false teachings, by false prophets. Accept these false teaching and your entire life is wasted. The validation of your life is in forgiveness of your sins by Jesus. That's not true.
Again you paint with a broad brush. Part of what you said is not false teaching. However you seem hung up on the forgiveness of sins but you have never mentioned Love. A tree is showing it's fruit.
If I were God, But you are not. I would take all these token offering and throw them back in their faces. Then Christ's death was meaningless under your definition. This is what not what God wants. He wants the substance and uncompromisingly so. How much does your faith cost you? Tokens? What God wants is our Love. Everything else follows if there is love.
It will take a miracle for Christianity to come back. God might fix it - but then again, he might just let this nonsense go on for 10,000 years.
If this posts sounds controversial, it's because it was meant to be. I wanted a attention-catching title: The death of Christianity, token/paper christians, collapse and ressurection.
For a number of years now, I have been thinking how Christianity has been utterly ineffective in dealing with the problems confronting this world.
Why do you think that? I find the reasons you have listed to be rather shallow. Have you seen the studies where they determined how life would be today if Christ had not appeared?]
I was wondering why that was. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that somewhere in the last 2,000 years, the religion died and what we have here does not resemble Christianity anymore.
So if you believe in Christ, his comment that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against his church was wasted breath. Which then inturn would make most of everything else he said nonsense.
I've come to realize I am not a Christian. I don't identify with what we think of as Christianity. Don't misunderstand. I don't question the divinity of Jesus, the correctness of the old testatment and other key beliefs.
I find this statement interesting. You want it both ways.
For the first 300 years, the teachings of Jesus were passed on verbally.No they were not. People were writing the Gospels long before then.
Somewhere around 300AD, they had council of Nacea which created the Bible.So the Toran is what? Chopped liver? It is a part of the Bible isn't it? And it was written long before Christ every showed up.
But, somehow the Bible has become an idol which we worship. So has the church. Contemporary/token Christians worship these two idols but they don't live a Christian life. Understand - the Bible is not God. The church is not God. These are meaningless items without the substance of faith.
We worhip the Bible and the Church??? Which faith are talking about? I have not seen this. I have seen the Bible used as a reference and considered a Holy Book, but worshipped?? Maybe you should define worship.
The term "Christian" means "little Christ". Faith means a person who lives a Christ-like life, emulating Christ - not perfectly of course, but emulating nonetheless. What kind of life is this? It is a life of unconditional, on-going self-sacrifice. Look at the lives of the original Christians. They were killed for their faith in the hostile Roman empire.
So unless we go out and die for Christ, we have failed? Mother Teresa was unfit to be called a Christian? Not all of the early Christians were killed by lions or Romans. Are they failed Christians?? Today's attacks may not be as direct as being feed to the lions but they are still there.
Now look at 21st century America. What we have does not even closely resemble Christianity - and I don't mean the godless masses, I mean those in the Church. They don't live their faith. They don't live a Christian life. 99.9% of it is entirely token, they are paper Christians - in word and not in deed. Take away the empty label and they are just like anyone else. The difference between "Christians" and the rest of them is like Coke and Pepsi, different packaging but same substance.
Then what are you doing to correct it? If you have been granted such insight into peoples lives then you must have some solutions so that we all do not perish. If you love your fellow man, you care about him and his salvation.
These token Christians have done more damage to true faith that diametrically opposing ideologies (nihilism, egoism). This I agree with. However the same people are present in all Faiths.
Christianity hasn't just been defeated, it has been subverted from the inside. There is nothing left. The whole thing needs to be built anew. There is nothing left? Nothing at all. Then how do we know that you know what really happened 2000 years ago?
The Bible defines many things about Christianity. It is a self-sacrificing lifestyle. It must always cost you something. Donating $20 per week to your church is not a sacrifice, it is a token which offends God. Christianity is a token today. _Living_ your faith is a not a token. One's entire life must be geared according to faith.Stewardship involves more than money. If I give $20 a week to the church but spend my nights and weekends helping others then I am giving more than money. I am giving love.
The ultimate litmus test of your faith is, when someone looks at you, it should immediately be obvious that you are a person who is living your faith. And when that's not the case, no superfluous labels are necessary or desired. So the first 30 years of Christ's life was wasted and meaningless because they didn't realize that he was a christian. Your point here is not valid. I find good people all the time that others think are cruel indifferent or whatever. You are trying to define Christianity to your standard.
Always remember, a person's actions speak way louder than any token gestures you can make. The contemporary Christians have become "the world", married to the world, and happy with the engagement, donating crumbs off their table, only to appease their conscience and nothing more. These people are worse than dishonest, they are deluded. They think they are righteous, but they are the antithesis of goodness. What makes a person a Christian is how he lives his life, or as Jesus said, you will know the tree by its fruit. Parts of this are correct. But you are painting with a broad brush.
Somehow the whole Christian thing has been reworked for the lowest common denominator. Confess your sins, accept Jesus and you are saved. These are false teachings, by false prophets. Accept these false teaching and your entire life is wasted. The validation of your life is in forgiveness of your sins by Jesus. That's not true.
Again you paint with a broad brush. Part of what you said is not false teaching. However you seem hung up on the forgiveness of sins but you have never mentioned Love. A tree is showing it's fruit.
If I were God, But you are not. I would take all these token offering and throw them back in their faces. Then Christ's death was meaningless under your definition. This is what not what God wants. He wants the substance and uncompromisingly so. How much does your faith cost you? Tokens? What God wants is our Love. Everything else follows if there is love.
It will take a miracle for Christianity to come back. God might fix it - but then again, he might just let this nonsense go on for 10,000 years.
Yea of little faith.
Last edited by Ultramagdan; 08-13-2003 at 07:52 PM.
#41
08-13-2003, 07:59 PM
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#42
08-13-2003, 08:10 PM
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08-13-2003, 08:18 PM
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#45
08-13-2003, 08:23 PM
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Token Christianity
It's 8 empires, its only specific ones. Like Roman, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian etc. I think only the 1st and maybe the 3rd Reich's counted. I know my mom has a bible where it is side-by-side research that a guy did. Basically, its a bible with footnotes. Very descriptive, gives the names and pictures of the 7. Says the 8th will come out of the Roman empire, along with the anti-christ.