I just had to put in my own 2 cents worth, concerning churches, religion, and history. If you join a church so that you may practice a religion,(and become a christian) make sure that the church & religion that you are embracing encourage you to be a christ-like person! There are alot of different churches out there, wanting new (and old) members to attend, give time & money to their causes and, hopefully make life for all people better. Now for the history part... Approximately 800 years ago some very bloody battles were fought over real estate & right of way - the crusades! (Politics and power were involved also.) Wars are not cheap, and after alot of fighting for control of the "holy land" a certain king did not want to pay his (hired) troops after failing to secure some economical (at the time) trade routes. This king decided to cut his losses by not paying the troops, but it had to be done in a way that was acceptable to the public. The king's investment partner in the failed venture happened to be a highly respected official in his church and he helped the king out of having to pay by declaring the (hired) troops "heretics" "un-believers" etc. This declaration caused the troops to suffer terribly - many were killed by the public, hunted down, etc. I have related a similar bit of history to a few people who wanted me to join THEIR church and they asked me if I was a teacher! I told them that all of the information is available free of charge at any public library, and that since I didn't have the books with me at the moment that if they found any inaccuracies in my information, I would be glad to research the topic again. I just wanted to say that if you find a church supporting the content of the new testament, and you like the people- go ahead and join. If you haven't found a church that you like, it's ok to believe privately and govern your own life accordingly. We live in a free country (one of our basic freedoms is "freedom of religion") Well, for 2cents, I've spent my pocket change today!

 

"I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

We can believe whatever we want to as "free" Americans. But truth is still truth no matter how you twist it. There is a lot of messed up stuff going on in our churches today. It's true. And many Christians are hypocrits. It's true. But you can't label Christianity as a joke just because some people are hypocrits. The fact is, Jesus is coming back for his church. And that is why it is worth it to be involved and serious about it. And another truth is that whether we believe it or not, we ALL are going to stand before him in judgement. So I'm not worried about what everyone else is doing. I'm doing what I know is right.

If I'm wrong, none of us has lost anything. But if the atheists are wrong, then I'll be fine and they'll be ... well, it'll be too late for them. I guess that's one way to look at it. Why take a chance with life?

 

Well, I believe a little differently. I think we are in the pre-apocalyptic phase

It is a popular mythological belief system which is a key component of neutralization. Things are bad, but Jesus will come and fix everything. What if it is not true? Then your belief system will not be validated.

I believe that the last century (20th) is the prelude to the real apocalypse.

By any criteria you employ, the world has already collapsed, we just aren't aware of it yet. Jesus has already come. All of the prophecies in the book of Revelation have already been fulfilled. Jesus is not coming back and his promise does not extend to you. Being a divine God, Jesus can of course come back again, any number of times, or do in fact anything at all. But none of this "waiting for the Second Coming" stuff will get you anywhere. God has entrusted the world -- to you.

This is what really made me want to reply. Romans, 10: 9-13 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is what I meant above that the Bible has become our God, subsituting God, becoming an idol we worship. The Bible is not God. The Church is not God. These are human creations. I don't believe the Bible applies to us anymore. The Bible records Jesus' message 2,000 years ago. That message was only for the Jewish people and only at the time. It is not applicable to us. It is taken out of context. Most certainly God has much higher expectations from you than that. All of the Biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled, it is no longer applicable. If you really think about it, it is great news.

.. What a pleasant surprise to see such an insightfull and thought provoking dialogue. ...


This isn't something I've come up with just yesterday and am merely ranting. No, it is a culmination of many years of frustration. We are not living our belief system. It is all token, token religion, token beliefs, token commitment, token lives, without any real price tag attached.

Isn't that the ultimate proof of a belief system? That it has to be lived? And if you cannot live it, does it invalidate it? Or maybe there is nothing wrong with the belief system, it is the participants who are responsible?

I've come to believe that somehow Christianity has to be ressurected in a different format. Closer to 200AD Christiniaty than to 2000AD. That makes me a fundamentalist I suppose. We need a paradigm shift in Christian morality and this new morality should encompass that.

It is extremely doubtful that there will be another "Coming" which will address this problem; However I know that God can work in multiple ways.

 

when i was first reading this,i thought it sounded good, until you say that the bible, the word of God no longer applies to us, and that Jesus has already come, if thats the case, then i am living for nothing, and I should be pitied above all men.

 

Pascal's Wager ?
--
If I'm wrong, none of us has lost anything. But if the atheists are wrong, then I'll be fine and they'll be ... well, it'll be too late for them. I guess that's one way to look at it. Why take a chance with life?
--

"If you gain, you gain all," Pascal argued. "If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is."

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pascal.html

 

I find these religious threads fascinating. The number of different beliefs and slants that are presented amazes me, as does the shear faith that some people have. I'm also amazed by people's ability to find a quote from the Bible to support their argument.

carpe_diem - Is it safe to assume you're practicing what you're preaching here? Or is it just hypothetical? It sounds a little self righteous to me. How do YOU know what God wants, and what is acceptable to him? Who are you to judge anyone because they "only" put $20 a week in the collection tray?

I agree with you 100% on this key point (but unfortunately not much else).

- The Bible is not God
- The Church is not God.

Both are human creations, capable of being manipulated to serve any purpose.

I think I'm one of the exact "hypocrites" you're after. I'm Baptized and Confirmed. Quite frankly though, I have no use for organized religion, in fact, I'm rather opposed to it. The Catholic Church is pretty much irrelevent to me. This is a trend that I've seen a lot of. It's a move away from organized religion to an individual or "personal" faith.

I agree with what you're saying about people not having the commitment to religion that they once did. IMHO, it's because religion (aka the Church) was not able to give them what they needed, or was not sufficiently relevent to their lives. If something is beneficial and relevent to you, you don't stop doing it.

As for the doom and gloom apocalypse stuff, I feel sorry for you actually, it must be hard to live when you believe that the best of the world is over, and we are in a pit of darkness with little hope of getting out.

Waxy

 

I really stay away from political and religous arenas, they are so controversial, but your message has many great truths and some thought provoking idealologies in it. I must ask, if I may, what is your educational level on theological matters, self learned or a college degree ? I am impressed with your knowledge of the faith of christianity, to say the least. I am curious to know what you base your statement on, that we are post apocalypse, and the 'Second Coming' has already transpired. To me the "signs" ( seven horsemen) have not all been fulfilled yet. And would one not be reasonably aware that an event as major as the "Second Coming" be more reckonized? I have no reckoning of it, nor any of the clergy in my state has come forth with the acknowledgement of it.
I studied the bible (james version) greatly when I was "called" to Christ in 1981. The bible was jibberish to me until the "calling" came about. Within 3 days, the bible's words spoke to me as easy as reading the Time magazine. My whole being changed, I had this sense of joy, peace, come over me that only a new christian living in the spirit of Christ , could understand. I wasnt strong enough to keep the spirit in me , and back slid. I do not attend church now, but I know in my heart that the light of Christ was in me for a while, and it is REAL. No church or person can persuade me any different, regardless of there teachings. So your so right, Christianity can be kept alive in everyones heart, it doesnt have to be in a marble manmade mansion with a cross on it. Although the bible says and I will try to quote " ( Christ)Where one or more gather to worship in my name, so will I be with them". The way I understand it , church is for sinners, and those wanting to learn the teachings of Christ( I know, there are a LOT of versions on that one) , and the righteous ones, well, they are already in congress,

 

when Jesus comes back to take His people home, that day i eagerly look forward to, the bible (which i believe to be the inerrant, living never changing always relevant Word of God) says that EVERY eye will see Him (Christ) on that day

 

Me and my wife were married in the church. I make up excuses not to go the church for services every week. I hope this doesn't make me less of a christian. I like the readings and how Father Dennis gives us great analogies or actually applying it in the everyday struggle to survive. Although my son has alterserved for about 6 years now and my wife goes almost every week w/ my 14 year old and one maybe both little ones if its a real good day. My mother always tought me and I live, have faith and use prayer to help. And when I mean prayer I don't mean actually citing versus. But mostly giving thanks for how lucky I am to have what I have and continue to utilize qualities that are the essence of a home and family. And when i mean have what i have. It's all about the love, closeness and committment to family and "real friends".

 

wow.... I started out like many thinking that carpe had something and the more I read, the more worried I become .....I agree that religion in itself is not as important to people today and that for many "being Christian" might be a social "thing"...the thing to be affiliated with.

I do not, however, believe that the 2nd coming has already happened. When the creator of everything...the heavens and the earth, everything on earth and under the earth returns...I would hope that the world would notice. While I agree that each day brings us nearer to His coming, I don't believe that all of Revelation has been fulfilled. If there is no coming of Christ, what do we as believers in Christ have to live for?

while the Bible is written by man, it is inspired by God...God breathed...therefore it is God's word...His holy, inspired, never changing, living, breathing, absolute truth. It is the Word of God. It has survived many years and generations and will continue to do so, while the exact story or parable may not be an exact parable set in our time, the principals tought can be applied to current times. Many of the stories are still "timeless". There is not anything in our current time that is not provided for, taught, or communicated in God's holy word. True it may not say "do not do ...... (you fill in the blank). But the principals involved in anything having to do with today can still be relevant.

the church itself is made up of God's people....granted many refer to it today as the building they meet in...and yes some are quite ornate and have costs large amounts of money. while those who haven't accepted Christ are welcomed into it to make such a decision and grow and fellowship with other believers, the church also is a place for believers to come and lift each other up, to encourage one another, to grow, and to fellowship. There is a purpose for it other than just meeting together several times a week. I used to subscribe to the theory that I didn't need the church to believe in Christ and to grow in my relationship with Him.....but that is not how Christ intended it. And because we are lazy in our flesh and we pursue earthly things, that growth outside of the church very rarely happens. Christ encouraged us "that two are better than one, for when one falls the other can help him up....woe to the man who has no one to help him up." Two are better than one, for they receive a better return for their work....the church should be a support system for Christians, it should meet the needs of its community...it should be a "safe place" for its believers to come and grow and talk with other believers, to confess and to ask for prayer...a place where others can interceed in prayer on your behalf....without the church AS CHRIST INTENDED IT, you cannot expect to get the full abundance of your relationship with Christ.

as far as once saved always saved...I do belive that....of course Christ does desire you to live to serve Him. And as a follower, you, out of love, should desire to serve Him. For those that fall away, they are missing out on the "abundant life" that he promises. When we bow at the foot of Christ and lay down the crowns that he has reward us with, they will not have as much to give....once you ask Christ into your life, He "puts within you the Holy Spirit, as a deposit guarenteeing of what is to come." John 29:11 says that once the sheep is in the father's hand that nothing can ****** it out. Romans 8:38-39 "38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[1] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

nothing can pull God away from you...once you belong to Christ, you always do.....Just as my biological father is my dad and will always be...the same is true of Christ...Once He becomes my savior, He always will be....its the relationship I must continue to work on...just because I turn my back on my dad doesn't mean he is not longer my dad...the relationship is just not what it once was...YES, I do believe many use this as an excuse and many accept Christ as "fire insurance", but God will judge them accordingly when we stand before the throne of judgement.

just my 2 cents and I have enjoyed the thoughts.

 

amen bro, my thoughts exactly, Fisher

this world needs to get back to the heart of christianity, a man Jesus, who was all man, but at the same time, all God, died on a cross and came back to life 3 days later, to save whomever accepts Him and the cost He paid on the cross for our sins.

or to put it another way, Jesus paid a debt He didnt owe, because we owed a debt that we couldnt pay

 

carpe_diem - Is it safe to assume you're practicing what you're preaching here?

That would be the necessary litmus test, wouldn't it? In fact the only one. If you cannot substantially practice your faith and structure your life upon it, it is a token and what's the bloody point?

Or is it just hypothetical? It sounds a little self righteous to me. How do YOU know what God wants, and what is acceptable to him?

I don't know the Bible in its breadth, just a few chapters which I studied extensively. But somewhere in the Bible, it talks about people who are like-minded, same-spirited and thirdly, of same-calling.

My difference with modern Christians is in the latter. We are like-minded, like-spiritied but our calling is different. I think this is the source for controversy in this discussion, which I knew would occur. If your calling in life is different, it is very doubtful you will understand another person's calling, or follow him. I.e. the case of "Theologian".

The only way to know what God wants is a divine revelation, an epiphany. Ever had one of these? A sudden and profound realization that completely changes your life? A higher understanding that was given to you, essentially. That happens - sometimes - or never, seemingly beyond your control.

Of course, another way is reading the Bible. That too is hard or downright impossible to understand without a revelation. I must say however, that a lot of the Bible is no longer applicable to the modern times. Taken out of context, it utterly loses meaning.

You can also say that I reference the Bible when it supports my point, and say that it is not applicable when it doesn't. That's true. Do realize though, that for hundreds of years, the teachings of Jesus were passed on verbally. It is much later that someone decided to write them down. And that was an interesting experience in itself. Who decided what to include and how? The Bible is not Christianity, because Christianity is a way of life.

Who are you to judge anyone because they "only" put $20 a week in the collection tray?

Sure you realize that these comments have a lot of validity which is independent of the source of the message.


I agree with what you're saying about people not having the commitment to religion that they once did. IMHO, it's because religion (aka the Church) was not able to give them what they needed, or was not sufficiently relevent to their lives. If something is beneficial and relevent to you, you don't stop doing it.


In a sense you are right. But, the Church does not exist to give them what they need. Rather, we exist to give the Church what it needs!! That's the key purpose, raison d'etre!


Your comment is too optimistic about me. Self-learned - I am still in the learning process with my knowledge severely incomplete.

That's a valid question. There are lots and lots of reasons why I think the world has already ended and civilization has already collapsed. Not entirely in the literal sense. Discussing this would take a book. And there is lots of educational material avaialble.
As for the Second Coming, I have not done that much research on it, but I've learned that it has occured about 70AD. Beyond that I don't know, but it is consistent with other data that I've learned. It is true however, that God being omnipotent and omniscient can do anything God wants - come back X number of times. I do think that the entire Second Coming/book of Revelation tangent is no longer applicable to us - today, like it was at one point. You no longer have to live in fear, expecting the worst, the end of the world. All of that has already happened, which is actually great news.

That's precisely what I meant above about "calling". It is the criteria which wholly defines your perspective on the world.

You don't have to -- _you_ are the Church. Not only "can", but "must".

 

I am gonna go with fisher and nick on this one.

we can't pay God anything that would amount for our sins.
hence, salvation thru God's grace alone.

my thoughts also

 

Quote: "By any criteria you employ, the world has already collapsed, we just aren't aware of it yet. Jesus has already come. All of the prophecies in the book of Revelation have already been fulfilled. Jesus is not coming back and his promise does not extend to you. Being a divine God, Jesus can of course come back again, any number of times, or do in fact anything at all. But none of this "waiting for the Second Coming" stuff will get you anywhere. God has entrusted the world -- to you. "

******

I don't think this is the case because there is an end...and end to the physical life...life on earth...man will not continue to be left to live on earth for eternity....When Christ comes to take His bride (the church - his believers) that will be it. At that time all will have had the opportunity to accept Him...all will have had the opportunity to live for Him. At that point, it will end...those who have accepted Him will enjoy eternal life...that is life together with God for eternity...A life that enjoys the reward of eternity spent with Christ because we are joint heirs with Christ. Those who have not accepted Him will be sentenced to eternal death...otherwise none as an eternity spent apart from God...eternity in hell...eternal darkness, gnashing of teeth...there is an end...life on earth will not just continue on forever...and in the end, God wins...He is victorious and His people will be also...we haven't missed the 2nd coming.... John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."

the only question about this passage is who is the you...if you have accepted, then YOU will have a room...if not then YOU won't.

 

"I don't know the Bible in its breadth, just a few chapters which I studied extensively. "
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I think this is where most of the problems come in....many talk about something that they are not completely familiar with...I'm not trying to criticize you, Carpe....but how can you have such sure thoughts and deep thoughts about something you have just scratched the surface of?



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"Of course, another way is reading the Bible. That too is hard or downright impossible to understand without a revelation. I must say however, that a lot of the Bible is no longer applicable to the modern times. Taken out of context, it utterly loses meaning."
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the Holy Spirt, which was given to you the moment you accepted Christ...God's spirit within us....helps you to understand His word. Just as anything else...to those who do not know about something, it often seems to be confusing. Once you invite Christ into your life, he begins revealing himself to you thru: circumstances, His word, prayer, and the Holy Spirit. anything taken out of context losses meaning...I agree with you there.




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"Discussing this would take a book. And there is lots of educational material avaialble."
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Likewise there are alot of books available about evolution, but I don't think that is true either. Many believe completely...but believing completely doesn't keep you from being completely wrong.




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"As for the Second Coming, I have not done that much research on it, but I've learned that it has occured about 70AD. You no longer have to live in fear, expecting the worst, the end of the world. All of that has already happened, which is actually great news."
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now this is what I find to be really scary...you haven't done much research on it, but you are already declaring that it has happened.