Yeah, I do not have the side-by-side, but I do have the footnotes....yeah I think it is only 1st and 3rd reichs...WWI and WWII right? the 2nd was in between....and no, all 8 empires are out of ancient rome, starting with caesar, it contains such names as charlamagne? napolean, someone who started with an A...I cannot remmber them all see if I can get the book at my house post it next week...Good reading though.

 

1st Reich - Roman Empire
3rd Reich - **** Germany

This comes from Dake's Annotated Reference Bible
The empires are rated 1-8 for their persecution of the jews.
1st - Egypt
2nd - Assyria
3rd - Babylonian
4th - Medo-Persian
5th - Grecian
6th and 7th - Rome

 

OK looks like i need to go re-research my stuff be back to this conversation next week with all names dates, referances to versus...etc...

 

Wow, I was feeling pretty good agreeing with everything that I read until I saw this.

So, you're saying that "Bob" can dedicate his life to God and then after a while decide that he dosen't like being a Christian, then go do whatever he wants and still go to heaven without asking for forgiveness?

My Bible says that if we sin, we should ask for forgiveness.

It's nice to have a religious thread without a bunch of flaming!!

 

"I do not see how someone could not believe in evolution, or at least to some extent."

How could I not believe in evolution? I don't believe because my Bible says God created the earth. No carpe, I do not worship my Bible.

"And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day."

...proof that God took seven literal days. Don't get me started on evolution!

 

that once saved always saved doctrine, if it is called that (i dont know terminlology too well) ( i just know that i love Jesus and want to be with Him forever) anyway, i was raised in a church that taught that, but ive hung out with evangelists and missionaries who are more pentacostal in their beliefs and they do not belive this, and ive heard arguments on both sides of the coin, and well, im confused and dont really know for sure what i belive on eternal security, but all i know is that i want to live every day for Jesus.

 

I am going to move beyond this discussion unless I see something especially intriguing. I said all I can or should.

I certainly won't respond to accusatory questions from those who have already made up their minds. Because it is the person's responsibility, through his own thinking, logic, investigation and years of effort and conflict to figure out the truth of the matter, what happened, what is happening and what can happen - I won't do that for anyone.

Every person who is engaged in this truth-seeking process must constantly discard bad dogmas, false beliefs, untruths and his/her garbage. This process is a life-long process and should never end. It's controversial and creates conflict which must be resolved in one's life. BTW, it is interesting how non-token Christianity (which is of course redundant of a term) is irreconcilable with the world - this reconciliation is not only not possible, it is not even desirable and a church which does reconcile and compromise harms it -- look at the the recent thread by "Theologian", I think he highlighted this issue. We don't need reconciliation and peace with the world; the source of progress is polarization and conflict. The Bible says that the truth will defend itself in this conflict.

This stuff I am talking about transcends knowledge. Even years of effort do not guarantee a solid understanding - I know I am still struggling with the concepts.

Despite the self-contradictory title of this thread, Christianity is of course either fully and always non-token or will cease to exist. Upon much contemplation, it seems to have deteriorated to a token which is unable to shape the key circumstances of our world, our lives. I must confess that I don't understand the mechanism of this selection, how this choice is made, whether by us, or divinely, or a combination thereof. And while this current situation is deteriorating, perhaps it is necessary for the ressurection of the New Morality, new doctrines which do not incapacitate invidiual responsibility and do not neutralize those who subscribe to the message with mythological belief systems and downright false promises so they can just live their lives and actually fulfill God's agenda, here, not wait for some later validation of their faith. It will take a miracle for this ressurection to occur but then we had lots of miracles over millennia.

I knew the substance of the message would be missed by many or most, before I ever said it because it so radically differers from the comfortable. soothing rhetoric of the status quo church. Nevertheless it does generate some good thoughts beyond the usual fluff.

If it gives 1 person more options than before, it is was worth it.

 

This is kind of a cop out carpe_diem.

How can anyone try to understand what you're proposing if you aren't willing to discuss it? People need time to challenge and wrap their heads around a statement before they can hope to understand it.

Waxy

 

Don't grow weary in well-doing, carp. There was another person fed up with religion that was sugar-coated. He tried his best to make people see that and was nailed to a cross because of it. Hash it out, wring the stink out of it and when the smoke clears I really believe you will have people thnking a little bit more about why they are going to the trouble of sitting down in a pew.

 

I know that depending on which religion you are a part of that this might be a controversial statement.....But YES, I do believe based on my study of God's word....His complete word --that once you have accepted Christ that you are his...that your name is scribed into the Lamb's Book of Life....nowhere have I read that it is any different. No where have a I read that somebody that accepted Christ and then after some time fell away did not go....No where have I read that a name was removed from the book of life. Yes, everyone should ask for forgiveness and Yes, everyone will have to give an account of their life before God...one day that will face Him face to face...Just God and them...nobody else and God will ask them to give account for their actions...all of them. and their heavenly rewards will be based on that.

I believe it is a relationship...and as I said just because I may turn my back on Him (which I hope to never do!) He is still my father....and in order for my relationship to become "right" with Him again, I will have to go before Him and confess my actions and ask for forgiveness.

I know this isn't exactly the same thing, but look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus...he didn't say anything other than "remember me today in paradise" and according to Christ's response...He is enjoying eternal life in Heaven as we discuss this.

If you truly mean what you say and feel when you accept Christ, I find that it would be hard to totally turn you back on Him and that you would want to do anything other than try to serve Him as best you can and that you would continually want to grow in Him..

 

additionally.....if someone accepts Christ and then total turns away from God deciding that the way of life that He expects us to live is not for them....I would honestly have to question their original experience....did they mean it? Did they actually mean that they believed that Christ died in their place, for their sins and 3 days later rose from the dead so that he might pardon their sins? Did they actually mean it when they said that they wanted Christ to be Lord of their life? Did they mean it when they said that they wanted to turn from their current lifestyle?

it says that if you confess with your mouth....but it also says "and believe in your heart" did they truly believe when they made that decision? we will never know..that is between them and God.

 

answer this question and you will have the answer to your faith issues.

Why are there no athiest's in fox holes?

 

Pacals wager?

 

Why are the Cowboys "America's Team" when they're winning but irrelevent otherwise?

I'm in NO WAY suggesting the Cowboys are God like. Only that people want to go with the winner, even if they don't really like them.

That, and Pascal's wager are pretty good reasons IMHO.

Waxy

 

You are definitely right about how most "christians" do it in name only and do not really live it. I strongly believe, however, that christianity has a definite place in the world. I trust God with everything I have and He is why I am where I am today. There are many who believe that trusting God and living his word is not practical and they can't have fun at the same time as living for God. I disagree.

My faith in god is what got me to this point, and I wouldn't consider doing it any other way.

just putting in my 2 cents in