I have followed this thread very carefully. It has been enlightening. There are some profound thoughts and opinions about this subject.
Please Theo, break it down and write that paper. Maybe then I can wrap my brain around this subject. All these thoughts and opinions are hard to absorb.
zanny

 

> I don't understand is the constant need to convert
> everyone else

Because once you have seen miracles or had God speak to you, you want to make sure as many people as possible are saved from hell.

It has been roughly 2003 years since Jesus died. Things predicted in the Bible have been coming true and we know the end is coming because we can now understand most of the Bible.

Everything from Genesis where it states God makes things seen from things unseen (atoms) to the seven eyes of God (Revelations) to being the seven continents.

As for token Christians, the parable about the farmer who sows seeds that fall in the rocky soil covers that. Though there are literally tens of millions of true devoted Christians in America. Here are some of them:

www.amigosforchrist.org

 

I curious as to what other options you're offering? From what I read in the bible there are only two, unless you have some scripture to share to prove otherwise.

 

It has been quoted from biblical writings that God has commaded believers to go out and convert those who don't believe. What do these passages command us to do to those who won't convert or outright reject those advances?

Isn't this attitude what is allowing the 'religion of peace' to be corrupted into the source of world wide problems that it now is?

 

Yes, but maybe I'm not concerned about hell, and I'm just fine the way I am. Maybe I don't need saving. See what I'm getting at?

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It has been roughly 2003 years since Jesus died. Things predicted in the Bible have been coming true and we know the end is coming because we can now understand most of the Bible.

Everything from Genesis where it states God makes things seen from things unseen (atoms) to the seven eyes of God (Revelations) to being the seven continents.

I find this fascinating.

It's not hard to draw these parallels, you can make all of Nostradamus' and Rasputin's predictions into literal events if you want to. Psychics are mulitmillion dollar business in the US because they speak in broad generalizations, that if you try hard enough, you can relate directly to your life.

I don't understand the taking of the Bible as being a literal truth, a roadmap for history. Why the need to connect every story in the Bible to an actual occurrence in history? To predict the end of the world? It's really interesting to me how people make the connections to historical events, and even more so how everyone has a different opinion on said events. I put very little stock in these "coincidences", so that leads me to this question.

Is it common belief that the Bible should be read literally, word for word, or should it be read in a more abstract, figurative sense?

I look forward to hearing the experts opinions.

Waxy

 

waxy....

how can you not be concerned about hell...wouldn't you like to know for sure where you are going to spend eternity? 70-80 years is nothing and a bad day here or there will be nothing compared to eternity in hell. If you believe in God...which at this point in the thread, I don't remember if you said you do or not....why would you want to "play around" with something so significant? Why would you want to "set yourself up" for such a terrible experience?

as for your other question... about how should you read the Bible...How would you read the absolute truth...because that is what God's word is...it is the absolute truth..never changing.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 says: "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. " I don't know how you could take this "in a more abstract, figurative sense"

 

I have a question, What happens to all those individuals on this planet who have never heard "the word of god"? You know, the rainforest pigmy's or natives in such a remote place that they never have contact with White man. Are they doomed to go to hell because of their supposed ignorance? How do we know who's religion is true in the first place? The bible is two thousand years old, but other religions are older then that. Shinto religion has been around since the Japanese Culture started three thousand years ago. Hindu , Buddism, Muslims, Jewish. Who wrong and who's right?
How do you trust what's written in the bible? The bible has been translated from one language to next many different times. Aramaic, hebrew, greek,latin,French, Old English and english. Anyone who knows anything about different languages knows that there are many times in the course of translating one language into another where "approximations" as to the nearest meaning are made because there are no words in the next language that convey the exact meaning. So after all those translations how can one be confident in the fact that the original meanings have not been perverted by church leaders or "kings" to serve their own purposes. The Kings of old Europe were constantly having new religious laws enacted to suit their own purposes.
I fear man has muddled in the affairs of god and his religion too much in order to ascertain a clear picture as to the correct path to heaven.

 

the Bible tells us that God is "waiting to come back" so that all may have a chance to hear...He is patient...not in keeping His promise, but in that He doesn't want anyone to perish....it also says that even those who haven't heard can see from creation..what is around them that there is indeed a God...now here's where we get into territory that I don't know about (some things we will just have to wait til we meet God face to face to find out about - guess thats where faith comes in!)...I believe that each person according to what they have been taught and the opportunity that they have had to hear will be accountable...Yes I think that the jungle tree people are at a disadvantage...much like a small baby or child...but they will be judged according to that...I believe that there is a certian point (and I have no idea where it is) where they have heard enough, read enough, experienced God...whether directly or indirectly...that they become accountable for the decision they make to either accept Him or reject Him.

as far as translations go....yes...somtimes things are lost in the translation, but I believe that many are very, very close..and hopefully thru your individual study, the Holy Spirit will guide you in your time.

as far as excuses go...we could list of ton of them...why should I belive in God....what has he done for me...what if the translation isn't correct...what if..what if...what if....the church did this to me...I knew a person that said they were a christian but....I didn't ask to be save....

there will come a day when the excuses won't work any longer...there is going to come a time when EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue on earth, and under the earth, in the heavens and under the sea WILL confess and proclaim Jesus Christ as the King.....there will not be a choice...there will not be an exceptable excuse...there will only be obedience....

you can either do it now and enjoy the benifits of it (ie: abundant life, peace, fellowship with the creator, providence, consistancy, freedom, etc...) or you can live your life your way and reap what comes from doing so and STILL when Christ comes again...kneel and confess and do the same thing and then take your eternal place apart from Him...you eternal death in hell....

it doesn't matter how many live their Christian lives like you think they should...or anything else...because when YOU stand before Christ...it's just going to be YOU and HIM...not any one else....its a decision YOU must make for YOURSELF.

 

I'm just not. You have to believe in something in order to be afraid of it.

Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe in the Catholic Church. Not really.

I don't view my relationship with God as the black and white affair the Church would like to make it out to be. Heaven or Hell.
I'm perfectly at peace with death. I believe in an afterlife, I'm sound in my belief that it will be a wonderful thing. I don't fear hell, I don't even give it a second thought.

Basically I've taken what I want from Christianity and I do my own thing. I have zero use for Bible scripture on heaven and hell, and even less for going to church on Sundays and the regimented faith system of the Catholic Church. For me, religion is a personal thing. It has far more to do with being a good and honest person than it does some scripture on the apocalypse in the Bible. I'll let you guys worry about that, I'll be busy just trying to live my life the best I can. I'm not worried.

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as for your other question... about how should you read the Bible...How would you read the absolute truth...because that is what God's word is...it is the absolute truth..never changing.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 says: "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. " I don't know how you could take this "in a more abstract, figurative sense"

I figured that would be your response. Very Orthodox.

I have a different view of the Bible. It is a book, written by man, that contains the essence of God's words and will. BUT, being written by man, it is not unchanging, in fact it has undergone changes the likes of which we'll never know throughout history. I know we've all done the exercise where you pass a message through 30 people and compare the end result to the initial message. Even in written form, it changes.

The Bible has undergone 2000 years of interpretation.

In terms of being figurative, the Bible, as I recall anyway, deals with most things in a very figurative way. Whether it's parables or just the general way that it's written. It's very open to interpretation. Of course, I could be off base on this, I'm certainly not well versed (get it) on the Bible.

Waxy

 

true Jesus often taught in parables...to help the people understand and relate what he was talking about to their everyday life....most farmed and worked with animals or fished so alot of the parables use these things to teach....and while it is true that some verses speak more to some than others...I don't think anyone honestly seeking God and asking for His guidence to interpet scripture can come away with something totally different than what He intended for it to be.

just my 2 cents...I know that some have made up their mind and that no amount of logic, or faith, or anything else will ever change that...and that is their right ..their freedom....and something that they will deal with.

 

Well, I hope you're ready for your meeting with Allah, Buddah, Zeus, etc... because the followers of those religions are all saying the same thing right now, and are very bit as firm in their beliefs.

This whole paragraph is a little over the top for me fisher. Every knee? Every tongue? No choice? Only obedience? Too far for my personal taste.

Waxy

 

Theologian,

Welcome back;

I need to see what the people think is wrong with Christianity

There is nothing wrong with fundamentalist Christianity. God is real. Jesus is real and fully omnipotent. We are not real. This is the focus of this thread. We are not living the "life". Somehow contemporary ways of thinking have taken "living the life" out of its theology.

Accepting Jesus means not passively preaching about it but living the life. If you are not living the life, you are not real. In fact, I don't know *anybody* who is living their belief system, nor do I personally do it. People assess that the cost of their faith is too high and revert to passively preaching about salvation in the barest sense. Nor do they recognize their tokeness to their discredit. It is a placebo.

As the Bible says, you will know them through their deeds; and only through their deeds I might add.

It is like this. When we eat dinner, we cook all kinds of meat, and chicken, etc. After the dinner, we typically have lots of stuff left so naturally it goes to the dog. The dog loves that leftovers stuff.

Our relationship with God is the same way. We give what doesn't cost us anything, the leftovers of our lives, and doesn't jeopardize what we have here. The church has somehow made that acceptable and built a morality upon it. What I am pointing out is the absurdity of it. Remember the parable of the old woman who donated a single coin vs. those who donated piles of silver shiekels? How much does it cost them? If your faith doesn't cost you anything (and when it does, your whole life makes it self-evident) - you've already rejected Jesus and his message and the Bible and the rest of it, instead filling this void with end-of-the world fantasies, "Second Coming" and other zany beliefs. Let's just stop pretending to be something we are not, it is so much easier this way.


I agree. My quesiton is, how does one find or go about seeking the truth? How can one recognize false teachings? How can we know the difference between our own thoughts, as in mans foolish wisdom, and spiritual thinking, as in God wisdom?

Divine revelation. Without it, there is utterly no hope of understanding the word God. Most of the Bible, I don't know, but if you seek wisdom, things will be revealed to you.

It has been quoted from biblical writings that God has commaded believers to go out and convert those who don't believe. What do these passages command us to do to those who won't convert or outright reject those advances?

Proverbs 23 : 9 - Speak not in the ears of fools: because they will despise the instruction of thy speech.
26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
13:20 - He that walketh with the wise, shall be wise: a friend of fools shall become like to them.
15:14 - The heart of the wise seeketh instruction: and the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

 

I am... "Every knee? Every tongue? No choice? Only obedience? Too far for my personal taste".....it's not my decision...its Biblical...it is what God and only God deserves....and He will have it His way.


as for this thread...I have enjoyed the different views...beliefs...and the conversation. It has caused me to think about what I believe and why....but as for the rest of the thread...I am bowing out now....I will continue to monitor it and will remain silent unless there is something specifically asked of me...I have shared my views and appreciate the opportunity to do so...likewise I have enjoyed hearing yours.

thanks,
fisher_of_man

 

I could site a few examples of this theory gone awry, Waco being one.

Why then, are there so many branches(?) of the Catholic faith, all with a different take on the Bible, all firm in the belief they are correct?

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just my 2 cents...I know that some have made up their mind and that no amount of logic, or faith, or anything else will ever change that...and that is their right ..their freedom....and something that they will deal with.

I agree with this statement, it is my right, and I'm more than willing to deal with my choices.

The problem I have with this statement, and most orthodox/fundamentalists, is the ominous sense of doom, that is lurking in it. It's a veiled threat of sorts, do it my way, or else.

You have your beliefs, fine, just don't threaten me, or tell me I'm any less of a person than you are or damned to eternal gloom because I don't share them.

That's the heart of my "problem" with the church and most Catholics I guess.

To quote the Mandelbaums "You think you're better than me?"

Waxy

 

I guess I'm a fool.

Again, I'm fine with that.

Like fisher, I think I'll bow out. I think I've spoken my part as well.

It's been a really interesting thread, but I think I'll get out while the gettin's good.

Thanks for the conversation.

Waxy