I must say that i feel very humbled by some of the extremely intelligent presentations of the meaning of the bible and how it can be interpreted in different ways. I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person but after reading the posts in this lengthy thread i realize that there are folks on this website that i would just sit and listen "too" if we were in a seminar setting because i would be so absorbed in trying to understand what was being presentated much less trying to present any origional idea's of my own. Thanks too all who are willing to take the Time to Share your idea's on this subject becasue you have deepened my understanding of God and helped to strenghtened my faith . For this i am very grateful.....sk

 

Greywolf, I guess I misunderstood your point on coming back again. I thought you seemed to be talking about reincarnation. The thing with Lazarus was a kind of healing that still takes place today. The thing with Jesus was quite unique. But both of those examples they came back as basically the same person.
There are minor inconsistencies in interpretation and verbage in different versions of the Bible. The king James even has a few passages in the New Testament that weren't in the original texts. Do these details invalidate the main messages of the Bible or compromise it in any way? Only for people who went in looking for a reason to, which they would find anyway.
The Bible was not intended by God to just give men head knowledge, it is God's living word to His people. There are passages that I have read dozens of times and one day I will read it again and it means something totally different that applys to a situation that I am in right then.
Also the Bible wasn't intended for carnal man and will seem like nonesense to him. It says so.
If I am really trying to dig into something I will have several versions of the Bible laid out and maybe a concordance and a reference or two and commentarys.
And even then sometimes you will come up against a concept that you just can't quite get a totally clear picture on. At that point I just have to trust God and realize that He is God and I am not so there will always be things that I don't really understand and just have to trust Him on. One example would be where Adam's sons found wives. It makes for great debate and can not really be answered. but I believe God told us all we need to know about it and we just have to trust and believe him.
I really don't find any evidence at all in the Bible to support reincarnation as such and know of no Christian sects that teach it unless you would call such things as the saints rising again reincarnation, but that would be quite a stretch.
Most Christians agree that nobody will die, period. It is just a matter of where you will spend eternity.
I am not a denominational person and believe that most of them have drawn their circle a little too small, but even at that many of them totally disagree on certain points. This really shouldn't be the focus, the focus should be what they agree upon. I don't think God would want a division amongst His people over details as long as you get the big picture.
We are all still just men who as such will never get it exactly right when we try to represent God as one of His own. You know you can't run water through a hose without getting a little taste of the hose.
Greywolf you are an obviously intelectual person and my only reccomendation to you would be to pray for wisdom and understanding everytime you read God's word. It will still have the message He intended it to regaurdless of any little flaws in interpretation that man has allowed to creep in over the years. And also if you really want to dig in then it is interesting to study the Hebrew, Aramic or Greek language as you go. Our language has only one word for use in place of several words in other languages. One example of that is when Jesus ask Peter if he loved Him. Jesus was asking agape which is the kind of love God has. Peter answered that he loved Him but his answer was actually phileo, which is brotherly love. There is also eros which is the kind of love you have for your wife and involves the physical attraction.
You are also very correct about only the rich having books and this also went even farther than that because the church didn't even think that the common man should have direct access to the Bible and should only get it interpereted from the laity. There was quite an uproar in the church when the printing press started making the Bible available to the general public.
All that being said sometimes we just have to agree to disagree, but just try to examine your motives and sources along the way, leave any preconcieved notions behind and keep you eyes on Jesus. Peace

 

I'm kinda surprised at the irreverence here.... some people (at least one) saying he's an open athiest...... I haven't read all the posts, but before you say you're an athiest, make sure about it, if you know what I mean! Have you even read the Bible? Read the King James version. It's the best.

 

OK. I'm jumping back in.

I've read every post in this thread, some several times. I'm left with on major question for all the "believers" for lack of a better word.

Does it not bother you that you are not ultimately in control of your own destiny?

To expand, does it not bother you that nothing you really do or say is your own, but instead "God's will"? Does it not bother you that you are essentially powerless to do anything about your life or the world, unless it's "God's will"?

Do you think that it fosters complacency and false contentment to simply believe that whatever happens is "God's will"?

I look forward to the responses.

Waxy

 

In my view - there are no incorrect religions therefore, and at one and the same time they are all equally irrellevant to some degree


Greywolf,

Let me point out that the search for truth by definition means progressing from one idea to another and in the process discarding bad ideas and theologies. This BTW is a life-long process. You never get to the absolute truth. Just keep improving very slowly. Sometimes it results in transcendence, which too is a life-long event.

No, of course not all ideas, views, religions, philosophies are equal, for that would negate the very substance of our lives, which is to progress. Not get stuck in one phase. Of course there are degrees of right and wrong, truth and error, as well as absolute wrong and absolute right and our purpose is to move from - to + incrementally.

I don't like token Christianity (as I pointed out over-abundantly) but even I would rate it higher than tree-worshipping tribes in Asia. Given its current tokenism, not much higher, though.


=================

Waxy

Does it not bother you that you are not ultimately in control of your own destiny?

To expand, does it not bother you that nothing you really do or say is your own, but instead "God's will"? Does it not bother you that you are essentially powerless to do anything about your life or the world, unless it's "God's will"?

Do you think that it fosters complacency and false contentment to simply believe that whatever happens is "God's will"?


Good question - Yes, it does bother me. It bothers me greatly, because like everyone else, I want to play God, at least in my own life. But it is true. You are not in control of your life. Most decisions are already made for you. You have no choice about mostly anything.

However, you do have *some* choices. These choices were the focus of this thread. It is a falsehood that we are uttery powerless, without any choices. Which is clearly not the case. You can in fact choose.

You hit the nail squarely on the head with your last question. It is a trap. That's what bothers me about the religious community. They believe in some "message", a purposefully false message, which results in complacency and false contentment as you so well put it. That's exactly what it is. Why choose false contentment over genuine gratification?

 

Greywolf

One more question - if rebith or reincarnation is really true -- there is really nothing in the Bible that contradicts it (not that the Bible is the ultimate and perfect source of truth) , what are the consequences of this truth?

As has been the underlaying message of this thread from post #1, what's the point of a truth, of a religion, etc. if it doesn't reflect in one's life? How are you different from someone who doesn't believe in it? How specifically does it modify one's behavior? Isn't that the ultimate goal?

 

ahhhh Waxy.... you won't believe how long I sat here staring at this deciding whether or not to come back in and discuss this with you...and here I am....Man as a whole is looking for something...longing to worship and be a part of something. Why is that...because God created you that way...with an inbuilt need, a desire, a longing to seek something bigger than yourself.

 

Thanks Fisher_of_man, I was at a loss for words.

 

fisher..... I wasn't sure I wanted to jump back in either, and I'm not interested in a debate really, I just wanted to try and understand the mindset of believing that everything is God's will. I wanted to know how people deal with the fact that they are not in control of their lives. I guess faith in their beliefs is the answer.

Quote:

actually you are...you have the ulitmate decision of whether or not to accept or reject Christ. You control that...God gives you free will to use. He doesn't force Himself on anyone, but waits longing for you to use the free will that He has given you to choose Him. By doing so, you secure where you spend your eternal life...either with Him or apart from Him.

You posted this, and there have been way too many other posts in this thread that directly contradict your above statement for me to go back and highlight them all.

I may be wrong, but I think the simple fact is, you must believe that everything that happens is God's will in order to be a "true"
Christian. Even if it means rationalizing the events of 9/11.

I can't live that way, I'm fiercely independent and individual. My life is what I make of it, I'm in control. I hate the thought that something or someone else is pulling the strings, I refuse to believe it. I'm not a fatalist, I don't believe in a destiny. I don't believe that the course of my life is predetermined and controlled by God either. It really gets my hackles up when people tell me that.

People saying "Well, I'll get this, or I'll win that, or I didn't get this or didn't win that" because it was "God's will"or "it'll happen if God wants it to" really anger me. I couldn't live like that, what's the point?

This will be my last rant unless directly addressed-

I don't want to offend anyone here, I truly don't, and I've been holding this one back, but in the context of this discussion, I think people will understand my intention and my point.

IMHO, religion is for the weak and the lazy. I view religion, especially organized religion, as a crutch, "God will look after me". It allows you to remove yourself from the equation, and ultimately from all accountability. Any belief in a power greater than the spirit of man does this, it allows man to wash his hands of responsibility and place it in the hands of a "higher power". It's a real convenient method for mankind to absolve itself of blame and responsibilty for the things that happen in our lives and in our world. It allows mankind to remove the thought process from its actions, and simply do it because it's written in a book and therefore is God's will. It's also a great way to form a group of minds into a single mind, and justify actions not justifiable by common sense and logic.

Someone asked "why are there no atheist in fox holes?"

I wanted to post this then. IMHO, the simple answer is, you are at your weakest point, anything you can latch onto that gives you some hope or peace of mind, you'll latch onto it. Regrdless of whether you truly believe in what you're doing. I think the same applies to terminal cancer patients, when there is no hope, you turn to anyting that might give you some hope.

Again, I don't intend to offend anyone here, I have the strongest belief in individuals freedom to do and believe as they desire, and I wouldn't want to insult anyone on the basis of their beliefs.

Waxy

 

your right waxy...i don't want a debate either....we both have differing views on this...and its obvious that since the start of this thread 9 days ago (8pages ago) that many have differing views and that even as we talk this out and share our point of views that we are not all going to come out believing the same way(free will). and we all agree that we have to be willing to accept whatever consequences that may bring. yes I did post the quote. and eventually when that time comes YOUR free will will turn to obedience. During your life on earth is when God gives you free will to chose Him, later on it won't be your choice.



this is the last point that I'm gonna address. it doesn't allow man to wash his hands of responsiblilty....man will be responsible for his actions. He will be judged and rewarded/punished accordingly. It calls man to live to a higher standard (to try and live to a Godly standard) and if that doesn't require thought or responsiblity I don't know what would. To me it is much easier to be concerned about myself and that's it. just to do whatever fills right or fills good....to do as I please and not worry about anything else...I don't understand how this can be that hard. To me it is much easier....takes less effort and less thought.



thanks again for the conversation and input.

 

It is and always will be my choice.

If we could come away with one thing from this thread, I'd ask that it be this.

You don't project your beliefs onto me, and I won't presume to project mine onto you.

Thanks fisher, I'm out.

Waxy

 

I'm on the fence Waxy. Leaning to your side though. Just the cynic in me. I have a really hard time dealing with hypocritical "christians." Way too many ?'s with no good answers from the religious side.

 

There are some things I feel comforatable talking about becasue I have confidence in my knowledge and beliefs on the subject. Religion is not one of them. I must admit that I could not have written those words in the original post any better, and probalby not as well.

One thing that has always bugged me about the bible and Christianity though is this....

Do you remember playing the "tell you a secret" game in elementry school where you whisper in someone's ear a message, and then they repeat the message to another, and then another, and so on? The message never comes back more than maybe 75% true. This is in one room between 20 people and takes place in 5 minuets. Well the Bible is a collection of stories that were passed doen for hundreds of years by word of mouth before ever being written down. Now, how accurate do you suppose those stories and lessons really are? I know this is theroy is not near on the same philosphy level as what Theo and Carpe Deim discussed, but it has always bothered me.

Personaly, I believe religion is something man created to help deal with the unknown, and the fear that no one is control. It does help in teaching values and controling society but if I have a relationship with any God its between that God and me. I don't need a church acting as a middle man.

I also have a hard time beleiveing that a evil person would go to heaven because they saved as a baby and that a perfect gentlemen who lives life the best he can would not becasue he was never "saved".

But like I said, I'm a little ignorant of religion. I'm sure someone will be happy to point out the error of my beliefs.

 

IMHO, religion is for the weak and the lazy. I view religion, especially organized religion, as a crutch, "God will look after me". It allows you to remove yourself from the equation, and ultimately from all accountability. Any belief in a power greater than the spirit of man does this, it allows man to wash his hands of responsibility and place it in the hands of a "higher power". It's a real convenient method for mankind to absolve itself of blame and responsibilty for the things that happen in our lives and in our world. It allows mankind to remove the thought process from its actions, and simply do it because it's written in a book and therefore is God's will. It's also a great way to form a group of minds into a single mind, and justify actions not justifiable by common sense and logic.


Actually, you are right in your assessment - with some reservations.

*This* religion is. *This* phase of Christianity. Just because you haven't seen it, don't think it was always like this! Christianity, like the rest of society has mutated, accepted new dogma, changed -- for the worse IMO. It needs to either get back to its roots, or evolve into something else entirely. Or die - and be replaced by another religion.

I am not against "organized religion", because that doesn't mean anything.

But, I wholeheartedly agree with above. About responsibility. God has entrusted this world to us. We are the ones responsible. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. 99%.99 of Christians today are paper Christians. In words and not deeds. You see some rare and isolated examples of people who have dedicated themselves without any reservations, and I respect them from the botom of my heart. The rest, meaning the masses, won't have any impact on anything. Just mediocre people taking space. Their paper faith ultimately exists only to appease their conscience. That's all. They embrace this world without any real sacrifices. Remember the parable of the old woman who donated a small coin vs. piles of silver?

It is really weird, but it seems that in order to live a righteous life positively impacting the world, you have to move beyond Christianity and all this Bible / Second Coming/ accept Jesus stuff. Look at who accomplishes anything in this society? The atheist left, the liberals. Although I don't believe in their socialist agenda, they are not neutralized like the conservatives and the religious right who "have accepted Jesus".

I pointed out that the adherents of Christianity are not living their faith, their belief system. This point hasn't been refuted or even acknowledged. Because there is nothing to say. Because it is true.

Wouldn't it be funny if all these leftists/liberals/commies/save-the-world lunatics in our society accepted Jesus, based their lives on mythological belief systems - and then did nothing to advance their treasonous agenda?! LOL Now that I would love to see.

Then the conservatives, the constitutionalists, gun-rights, America-first/withdraw from UN/etc people in other words, the ones I support - would have some real impact in shaping the future of this country unlike now, where they are powerless, self-neutralized. Unfortunately, the bitter reality is vice-versa. We conservatives/religious right are fools, too stupid to realize it.

 

Damn, I need to proof read before I post messages! I really can spell and contrary to what it sounds like, I am somewhat educated. Maybe I need to go to bed.