Best tow rig setup?
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 9,293
Likes: 10
From: Parker, CO
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 170
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I've got a 2000 F 350 dually 4x 4 with 260,000 miles on it so I am in need of some injector soon and I am thinking of going with 175cc single shot with stock nozzles. a guy around me rebuilds them and installs them for around the same as buying remains online but he does not charge for a core. I have a stock turbo with a wicked wheel and all the normal upgrades and i too am looking for a good tow rig and a fun daily driver. Was thinking of going with a 38r or the theruster II but havet herd much talk about that turbo
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Split-shot vs. single shot. Bear in mind that an earlier injection (but not too early) brings up the power without the need for more fuel than stock:
Stock - below is the flow chart on an AC 160 with a stock nozzle. The data is true of all sizes of single-shot injectors with stock nozzles... so the graph is more about the nozzle than the injector.
I've shown this before, but the reaction has always been crickets... so I'll explain it:
On this 3D graph, you need to take two pieces of information you have to get the third piece you want. If you know ICP and FIPW, you can figure out how many CCs of fuel is used per 1000 shots - with 160 being max because that's the rating of the injector. Say I have an Idle ICP of 500 PSI, and a FIPW of 2.8 ms: Look at where those two numbers intersect on the graph and you get a flow of about 45 CCs of fuel per 1000 shots. (use the color background on the curve to "see" the fuel quantity values). 45 CCs is in the third blue color up from the bottom.
Now... let's take the WOT readings of 3000 PSI ICP and the "safe" FIPW (as previously discussed) of 3 ms and see what color that intersects in. My old eyes see it in the orange color, at about 150 CCs per 1000 shots. So, based on this graph, IH engineers felt good about 150 CCs coming out of an AC 160. That leaves a little juice in the bottle, but completely draining an injector without over-shooting is tricky.
If you go past the capacity of an injector, the injector doesn't just say "Gone!" and shut the door - like Chevy Chase did in the squirrel scene of Christmas Vacation. When the injector bottoms out, a port opens to bleed oil from the top half of the injector. The longer the solenoid holds an empty injector active, the more your ICP drops... because the FIPW has just introduced an internal oil leak. So... shooting for absolute maximum capacity is flirting with making things much worse.
Back to our graphs: 150 CCs per 1000 shots is very respectable - it's more fuel than a stocker can deliver - even if emptied. The split vs. single graph already showed you'll get a bump in power from quicker injection - so the two combined pretty much pushes most of the "Yahoo!" out of your mouth, yet leaves some reserve in there. Throw a set of 100 % nozzles on the stick, and that single vs. split graph shows a very skinny green bump to the left - more of a tower than a knoll. This will get more of the "Yahoo" out of your mouth quicker... just like it does the fuel, but a little bit of bottom-end torque is traded off. Remember, IH engineers design stuff to haul cargo and people, not show off at the track - so they didn't choose a bigger nozzle. This is why Pocket said what he did about big nozzles not being for everybody.
"Small" nozzles (up to 100%):
Stock
30% (modified stock)
80% (from the nozzle manufacturers)
100% (modified 80%)
Stock - below is the flow chart on an AC 160 with a stock nozzle. The data is true of all sizes of single-shot injectors with stock nozzles... so the graph is more about the nozzle than the injector.
I've shown this before, but the reaction has always been crickets... so I'll explain it:
On this 3D graph, you need to take two pieces of information you have to get the third piece you want. If you know ICP and FIPW, you can figure out how many CCs of fuel is used per 1000 shots - with 160 being max because that's the rating of the injector. Say I have an Idle ICP of 500 PSI, and a FIPW of 2.8 ms: Look at where those two numbers intersect on the graph and you get a flow of about 45 CCs of fuel per 1000 shots. (use the color background on the curve to "see" the fuel quantity values). 45 CCs is in the third blue color up from the bottom.
Now... let's take the WOT readings of 3000 PSI ICP and the "safe" FIPW (as previously discussed) of 3 ms and see what color that intersects in. My old eyes see it in the orange color, at about 150 CCs per 1000 shots. So, based on this graph, IH engineers felt good about 150 CCs coming out of an AC 160. That leaves a little juice in the bottle, but completely draining an injector without over-shooting is tricky.
If you go past the capacity of an injector, the injector doesn't just say "Gone!" and shut the door - like Chevy Chase did in the squirrel scene of Christmas Vacation. When the injector bottoms out, a port opens to bleed oil from the top half of the injector. The longer the solenoid holds an empty injector active, the more your ICP drops... because the FIPW has just introduced an internal oil leak. So... shooting for absolute maximum capacity is flirting with making things much worse.
Back to our graphs: 150 CCs per 1000 shots is very respectable - it's more fuel than a stocker can deliver - even if emptied. The split vs. single graph already showed you'll get a bump in power from quicker injection - so the two combined pretty much pushes most of the "Yahoo!" out of your mouth, yet leaves some reserve in there. Throw a set of 100 % nozzles on the stick, and that single vs. split graph shows a very skinny green bump to the left - more of a tower than a knoll. This will get more of the "Yahoo" out of your mouth quicker... just like it does the fuel, but a little bit of bottom-end torque is traded off. Remember, IH engineers design stuff to haul cargo and people, not show off at the track - so they didn't choose a bigger nozzle. This is why Pocket said what he did about big nozzles not being for everybody.
"Small" nozzles (up to 100%):
Stock
30% (modified stock)
80% (from the nozzle manufacturers)
100% (modified 80%)
Tuned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes: 16
From: Kamloops, BC. Canada
Thanks Tugly,
So if I'm not mistaking for every cc of fuel (1000 count) equals rough and dirty 2.2 HP so taking that back to the 3D graph you can estimate ponies (in theory) at given ICP and PW right? In addition torque is very roughly HP time 2 yes? So using 2.5 ms of PW at 2500 psi ICP will yield about 130 cc of fuel x 2.2 = 286 HP and 578 lbs ft of torque right? This map is with stock nozzles right? And with say 80-100% nozzles the pitch (vertical rise) would be steeper?
Thanks for sharing
jrc
So if I'm not mistaking for every cc of fuel (1000 count) equals rough and dirty 2.2 HP so taking that back to the 3D graph you can estimate ponies (in theory) at given ICP and PW right? In addition torque is very roughly HP time 2 yes? So using 2.5 ms of PW at 2500 psi ICP will yield about 130 cc of fuel x 2.2 = 286 HP and 578 lbs ft of torque right? This map is with stock nozzles right? And with say 80-100% nozzles the pitch (vertical rise) would be steeper?
Thanks for sharing
jrc
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
It's a little more complicated than throwing a few theoretical numbers into a spreadsheet - engineers would put far more variables into the equation: 2000 PSI ICP stretches the green line, and 3000 PSI ICP tightens the green line. The time it takes to get the fuel in there messes with HP and torque, plus boost pressure and temperature plays a huge role. For rough and dirty though, your math works out.
Oh... and our stock HPOP is fully capable of 3000 PSI on AC 160s. Throw another 20 CCs of fuel in your equation for that permagrin factor.
Oh... and our stock HPOP is fully capable of 3000 PSI on AC 160s. Throw another 20 CCs of fuel in your equation for that permagrin factor.
Freshman User
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
I too would like to know the best setup for towing. I have a 32' bumper pull at about 9400#. I'm more interested in the suspension and drivetrain side of things. Like brakes, airbags and front end hd suspension parts. any thoughts on this?
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: thornton CO
Oh man... Don't get me started. Now they can use there welfare cards at the pot shops.
That's getting WAY off topic though.
That's getting WAY off topic though.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
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Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes: 6
From: Sioux Falls, SD
Firestone Air Bags to Improve Your Trucks Level Load Capacity, Ride-Rite and Sport-Rite Models | SuspensionConnection.com
For brakes I went with the cryo-treated powerslot rotors with Hawk Brake pads.........They made a huge difference!
https://puredieselpower.com/powerslot-2.html
I spent allot of time & money adding power upgrades to my F-250 to power up the hills & grades. Then I realized (shortly after cresting the hill ) I needed to do something to help slow the train down! With the brake upgrade and the tow program automatically downshifting from OD to 3rd & keeping the TC locked down to 35 mph I no longer worry about slowing the truck & camper down on some of the bigger downgrades.
Tuned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes: 16
From: Kamloops, BC. Canada
It's a little more complicated than throwing a few theoretical numbers into a spreadsheet - engineers would put far more variables into the equation: 2000 PSI ICP stretches the green line, and 3000 PSI ICP tightens the green line. The time it takes to get the fuel in there messes with HP and torque, plus boost pressure and temperature plays a huge role. For rough and dirty though, your math works out.
Oh... and our stock HPOP is fully capable of 3000 PSI on AC 160s. Throw another 20 CCs of fuel in your equation for that permagrin factor.
Oh... and our stock HPOP is fully capable of 3000 PSI on AC 160s. Throw another 20 CCs of fuel in your equation for that permagrin factor.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes: 6
From: Sioux Falls, SD
BTW, you guys (specifically, Tugly, Cleatus12r & Pocket) with you posts on ICP, PW, injector tuning, EGT's and all your graphs suck molasses....
Now you've got me driving around with the darn laptop datalogging Injector Pulse Width & ICP. I was having fun just driving around in the snow until you guys started with you banter.....
now I'm loosing sleep because I get up early to learn more.....
Now you've got me driving around with the darn laptop datalogging Injector Pulse Width & ICP. I was having fun just driving around in the snow until you guys started with you banter.....
now I'm loosing sleep because I get up early to learn more.....
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Those traction bars chased a multitude of sins out of the pool. I had a clunk between throttle and let-off that flat disappeared, vibration was greatly subdued, shifts are smoother, and the ride is more solid in the back.
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 4
From: Gary,Indiana
I don't even live in CO but looking at this graph makes feel like I just smoke something. It's freaking me out man!! I am having to hold on to my chair to keep from falling out of it?!? 
So thanks for explaining what is going on in the graph. It helps me get a better picture of what is going on and why you would want limits on your tuning. Or see if you have a tune that is asking for too much out of an injector at said cc's.
So thanks for explaining what is going on in the graph. It helps me get a better picture of what is going on and why you would want limits on your tuning. Or see if you have a tune that is asking for too much out of an injector at said cc's.