Yes, but as one gets farther from stock regarding aftermarket parts, the more one has to deal with the quirks of each modification chosen. Injectors are going to be either the killer of driveability and the bane of comfort should one get too large for the intended purpose or they can be the best thing done to the vehicle.


The reasons are five-fold.
1. Because I can. I will be going back to 140/80% split-shots after I'm done tuning these to my satisfaction (I'm a perfectionist so it's tough to decide when enough's enough).

2. Because I was sick and tired of seeing the current offerings for tuning regarding these "size" of injectors and decided to write my own calibrations that would exhibit stock-ish driveability traits with the hopes of bringing BETTER calibrations to the table through my employer.

3. Because there are a myriad of "custom tuners" out there that cannot make a stock horsepower calibration with "larger" injectors no matter how "mild" they may be. A 400+ horsepower "60 HP towing" program IS NOT acceptable.

4. Because I needed to prove to myself (and eventually the world) that 250/200% injectors could be streetable (although obviously not to their full potential) with a completely stock (read: 260K mile ALL-STOCK) truck but still roast tires at will and maintain decent (or stock-like) fuel economy when driving nicely. I won't opt for larger injectors after these...these ones are at the limit of street practicality and anything with larger nozzles will entail MORE "give and take" than I'm willing to accept.

5. Because EVERY truck responds to injector changes differently even if they use the same parts. Let's put it this way: I will always contest writing tuning remotely for a truck with nozzles larger than 100% that would be used for towing or daily driving. Also, I will NEVER recommend anything larger than 100% nozzles for a truck that needs to retain stock street manners. 200% nozzles are delving into the territory of "bearable" but not ideal.

As Tugly put it, live tuning is the only way to make anything with 100% or larger nozzles for a daily-driven or dedicated towing rig perfect. Also, he hit the nail on the head about the time constraints we have with injection events....anything larger than 160-175cc with 100% nozzles is a total waste unless you're looking for a sub-2800 RPM smoke machine or are willing to run 3400+ PSI of high pressure oil.

I don't make injector recommendations for anybody though. I'd stick with A-codes though (not hybrids) based on the original poster's usage.


That's fine and dandy. Just be prepared for some quirks in the lower horsepower calibrations and a monster on top. I personally run ONE calibration in my 2000 (the one with the 250/200% injectors and it does EVERYTHING) because for me, there is no reason for thirty-six different calibrations....or even more than three for most people.


I'd word that differently. I'd make sure to always include a nozzle size in your wish list. The nozzle size determines how much "settling" you'll have to deal with in exchange for power potential.

 

hmmmm.......I would like to try camper racing with Curtis' setup - he's running about 100 hp more than I am according to his signature......

This might be a good setup to think about for the Excursion though!

 

I can tow just fine in that tune too.

 

My plan is to haul a 10-15k lb camper and also have a fun dd. I don't plan on doing engine mods aside from sticks and springs. I have an f5 which poses a problem. At minimum I would need to upgrade to an f6. I want to get live tuned but I don't know anyone even semi locally and to have dp live tune it doesn't seem realistic for me.
I was also looking at 176/80. Sounds like these might be 'easier' to tune remotely. As far as the turbo goes I guess I don't know enough about them to know what setups would be the best for high altitude. If anyone has a link for some info that would be great.

 

Bill how long and how many miles you have on your 175/146's? Also what tunes are you running?

Rich I see you have been running your 175/146 for 6yrs but how many miles you have on them? Now I have never heard of T Wildman tunes but you seem to be very happy with them.

Did either of you guys have live tuning? I also find it very interesting that both of you have addressed the turbo set up differently and both with good results. Which is helpful for me since I'll be doing injectors while I am still running a E99 turbo with a 1.0 turbine housing. I find that the 175/146 are a great bang for the buck $$ and I like how for reman's that Swamps will stand behind them for 5 yrs. I have only heard one negative review about Swamps injectors.

Once again I would like to thank you for your input and I think you have made some great points. I also think that from what you said sure you can go larger nozzles and still get the job done but it just sounds like it takes alot coin to do so. Cost of injectors, live tuning and support modds.

So what I gather form this post is "KISS" or you can do the job with bigger injectors just be ready to drop some coin $$ and be willing to deal with the quirks that you might have.


Now since you will be towing heavy and in the mountains I think you have alot of choices you'll have to make. Some will be alittle easier than others and as far as the turbo goes I think this tread proves there are more than one way to get the job done. So I think it will come down to how much money do want to spend.

 

When I listed my choices of injectors, they were all 100% nozzles. I've never considered anything bigger.

At what power level would you suggest a guy considered 200% nozzles?


I know Matt prefers the 80% nozzles over the 100%, but then again from what I can tell with his tunes, they are SUPER clean & next to NO smoke!!

 

Nobody has said this yet, and I'll likely draw fire for saying it:

Better fuel atomization is always preferable. Higher fuel pressure out the nozzle is how this is achieved.

Conventional sticks for our trucks (AAs, ABs, ACs, ADs, AEs, etc...) have 7:1 intensifier pistons - meaning the fuel pressure out the nozzle is 7 times the ICP.

Hybrids have 5:1 intensifier pistons. It takes more ICP to make the same fuel pressure out the nozzle.

Higher ICP is harder on the High Oil Pressure system and the oil.

Bigger nozzles also impact atomization - the fuel "jets" more easily.

Anything above an IH 160/Stock nozzle puts you in a position to compromise something or to compensate.

Anything over 160-175 (that can drain at high RPMs) needs a bigger fuel system than stock.

New injectors are better than remans - I don't care if it's a lifetime warranty. I am one of few people that put flow-matched remans in and drove them a short time - then installed new injectors with the same specs from the same provider. New is undeniably better.

I regretted not getting Stage Is for a long time, but now I'm all good with Stage IIs (after enough blood, treasure, and calendars were used).

 

Rich you have had a long, hard road to getting Stinky to run the way you want. Most would have just settled with dealing with some issues. But you followed thru to the end and got the results you wanted. Good job.

I know some guys always want bigger injectors and more hp and if I was 20yrs younger I would be one of them guys saying I want more !! But now that I am older I have learned follow the trail that someone else has already blazed. So for my needs the Stage1's will do everything I need them to do. I just hope when the time comes I can afford new over reman. Hopefully I'll be changing them on my time line and not due to the fact one goes south on me. Time will tell.

 

I know of several trucks with larger hybrid injectors than that and the stock fuel system provides plenty of fuel. Robin's truck dynos around 490 hp and his fuel pressure sensor is post injectors. We never saw pressure fall below 53 psi on any of his WOT runs. Stock pump, stock bowl, stock lines, stock banjo bolts etc. Fuel flow was not an issue with the stock system.

I think hybrids will run out of HPO well before fuel flow becomes an issue.

 

My fuel system is on the edge with my sticks while running the Race tune. I may have a fuel line issue I need to look into.

 

Do you get a lot of fuel pressure drop at WOT in the hottest tune? I have seen a few times where a low fuel level has caused low fuel pressure at extreme acceleration events due to the fluid sloshing around inside the tank. I wonder if that might be your issue?

Have you replaced your FPR yet? I've seen a few cases where the poppet valve gets so worn that it sticks and causes pressure to drop more than we would like at WOT.

 

So you do not think it is a good idea to use 200/30 in a towing rig like this?

 

The FPR was displaced by a new setup when I install the FRx.

Sloshing, eh? That would be a big difference between a dyno run and a real run. If it's enough power to distort a driveshaft, angle the axle, and peel the pavement... I'm sure it's sending the fuel away from the pickup. That makes sense. Now why didn't I think of that?

I'm not the one that has to live with whatever decision you make - or without the cash you spend on it. I just offer up what I've learned, and I strongly encourage you to gather more information than just one guy with an ugly avatar on a forum. That being said, the math works out that a 200 CC/1000 shot injector will not drain in the allotted time at high RPM with a 100% nozzle... at least not without running hot. 30% nozzles just leave a whole-lotta fuel in the 200 CC stick. Maybe a demonstration is in order. I have AC 160/100s and lots of air to back it up - How much power do you need?

 

I see said the blind man..!

After reading all that has been posted above I don't want to straddle the fence with Hot Street vs Towing.. or throwing money down the drain. I just want to have a good, stable, long lasting tow rig
I know this is cuss words on here but I have a Hot Rod 2007 Chev 2500HD with 525 Hp if I Want to joy ride.

 

Let's clear something up about smaller nozzles, since there often times seems be confusion.

You can run any sized injector with a stock (or close to stock) nozzle. Just remember that your fueling (and ultimately real-world useable power) will be limited due to the amount of fuel that can pass through the nozzle at "X" RPM. The higher the RPM's, the shorter the injection window.

So say you want to run 200/30. You won't be able to push all the fuel that injector is capable of, because you won't have a long enough window of time to inject the fuel out of the smaller nozzles. Is this a bad thing? Of course not.

What is bad is when people do try and run as much PW as they can trying to squeeze every drop of fuel out through smaller nozzles. You end up with a smokey pig and high EGT's. Period. Know the limitations of the injector. Better yet, a good tuner should know that already, and would advise you as such, especially for towing.

The one advantage to smaller nozzles is they are generally easier to tune, and easier to keep a more stock-like feel in regards to pedal sensitivity, smoke, EGT's, and idle. The larger nozzles can also achieve near-same stock like qualities, but it takes much more effort in tweaking the tuning to get there. As Cody mentioned before, there are quirks with larger nozzles, some are difficult to overcome and require a lot of tweaking in the tuning. At the same time there are also advantages to larger nozzles, especially at higher RPM's and when you are really working the motor, such as towing. There's flexibility in having a greater amount of fuel available in a much shorter window of time.

For years it was the case that larger nozzles automatically meant more smoke and higher EGT's. Tuning in recent years has reversed that thinking for many. Much has been learned over time. More fuel doesn't automatically mean higher EGT's anymore. Understand now that your EGT's are a product of (quantity of fuel)+(quality of atomization)+(amount of time to inject fuel)+(timing of when the fuel is injected)..... all other factors being equal of course (such as turbo, engine health, etc). If you (or your tuner) can tune an injector with a larger nozzle while keeping those factors in mind, you can have more power on tap with very little smoke and very low EGT's.

Are larger nozzles for everyone? No. Are smaller nozzles for everyone? No. Much will depend on the tuner, the amount of time you are willing to dedicate to getting it running right, how you plan to use your truck, and of course - how much power you want.

Hopefully this helps..... or makes things clear as mud