I have a question about the flow paths for all the fluids in the early '99 turbos; oil, intake air, and exhaust. Especially as to where these fluids can go when things begin to fail. I have a consistent and noticeable light blue smoke at all engine speeds and loads. Higher loads, more smoke.

A little turbo history. This past summer the 4 screws holding the exhaust housing to the center section together backed out pretty much as far as they can go - I probably have some of the names wrong as I'm not familiar with the part terminology here. Nothing really seemed to come apart, as everything else bolted to the turbo sorta held it together. It created a huge exhaust leak with soot all over everything back there. Once apart, everything looked fine, but then again, I've never looked at one before.

From Riffraff I bought all the o-rings including the cloverleaf shaped one, and dismantled it and cleaned everything up, and it all went back together easily. As far as the "C" shaped thrust plate goes, I'm certain I put it back as it was, but I also think it only fits one way, due to the notches. Am I right about that? So now it's a few months later, and I think I'm losing oil through the turbo into the exhaust. I didn't get the bearing rebuild kit before, and I'm wondering if that, along with more o-rings, would fix any oil / exhaust leaks through the turbo.

I hope my smoke problem is turbo related, as I presume it's probably the easiest fix. At the same time this summer I also deleted the EBPV (which leaked), and did the Riffraff mods in my sig, and cleaned / changed every o-ring I could find on the top of the engine, including injectors. My deeper fear is that by cleaning everything, I strengthened those parts and have now highlighted weak links in more expensive things like the HPOP or injectors themselves, or possibly compression.

 

Wow, that was a very comprehensive and difficult to answer question.

Breaking it down into smaller bites, I can speak to at least one tiny part about the turbo bolts backing out.

This was a very common issue in the 1999, including e99, and early 2000 model years, until about the spring of 2000, if recall right.

According to International, the turbo bolts backed out due to "heat jacking", where the cyclical effect of the up pipes pushed the turbo counter clockwise (in the direction that bolts loosen) when heat lengthened the up pipes. Once cooled, the pipes would contract, and be coiled at the ready for another pump on the heat jack when heated up again.

International didn't notice this on their 444e engines, because their engines had bellowed up pipes that helped absorb the expansion and contraction cycles of the up pipes, isolating their change of state from the turbine housing.

The in field fix for the Ford trucks that were already out of the barn was a 12 point "wavy bolt" kit. These bolts had threads cut in such a way as to require a prevailing torque within the female threads in the turbine housing for the entire length of travel as the bolt is threaded in. The new bolt threads were slightly eccentric to the housing threads, which helped hold them in place to keep them from backing out.

In production, the fix was a change in manufacturing procedure, as well as bolts.

My bolts backed out. I caught it very early on, only because I knew about it, and periodically checked the center housing rotating assembly (CHRA) with an inspection mirror held against the firewall while aiming a narrow beam pencil light into the mirror. The mirror reflects the light on the bolt heads that back out, and at the same time enables you to see their position.

The shanks of the two tall vertical CHRA mounting bolts capture 2 or 3 of the small horizontal bolt heads that get heat jacked out, so usually only one bolt ends up backing out all the way and getting lost in the valley, or more often, lost down the road, falling over the transmission tunnel. Glad you caught yours in time.





As for what a damaged turbo looks like... you'd probably have seen it. High speed rotation balloons super heated parts radially, so the turbine wheel would likely crash against the turbine housing should a housing misalignment have occurred due to loose or MIA bolts.

International suggests removing and reinstalling only one bolt at a time, so as the other three bolts can help keep the alignment during the procedure.

 

You said you didn't replace the bearing rebuild kit. I'd start there.

 

Well I agree that at this point I would start with the rebuild kit from Clay. Garrett GTP38 Journal Bearing Rebuild Kit - Riffraff Diesel Performance Because not only does it have the bearings but the oil seals. Y2KW57 did a nice job explaining the bolt issue. So I would at least replace the bolts for the turbine housing and the compressor backing backing plate. When I rebuilt my turbo I replaced them bolts. Also when you take it back apart make sure you clean the groove where the oil seal goes on the turbine shaft and the CHRA oil seal groove with a pick and cleaner. To get all the coked oil and soot of that area. Because I would say that is the source of the leak also I would measure the turbine shaft and check the turbine blades for damage.

 

The rebuild kit from Clay is sitting on my doorstep as I write (per UPS anyway) and will go in this weekend. I'd like to thank mother nature for sending me a 60° weekend to do this,

My original question though is whether failure of these components would lead to the symptoms I'm seeing. As the exhaust side is under pressure, I would imagine leaks would direct hot exhaust gases into the oil return, and then the crankcase, which would explain the color of my oil and volume of crankcase gases from the doghouse and oil fill cap.

The blue smoke from the tailpipe however, would make me think the leak goes the other way, that the oil is entering the exhaust.

Could it be the oil is taking the long road, the gases go into the crankcase, carry oil vapor through the doghouse into the intake, and then the oil vapors get burned and make the blue smoke?? I dunno, but I am worried. I check my oil levels anytime I drive it, and no long trips until I figure this thing out. I've less than 200 miles on a T6 5w-40 oil change.

 

I suspect the oil is just bleeding past the bearing and going both directions. Bad injector O-rings can do the same thing, and that would tie in with a slow/smoky start. You already know for sure the turbo bearing is bad, so that's the place to start.

 

Is the rebuild kit you ordered from Clay to rebuild journal bearings of the stock turbo? Or to retrofit the ball bearings of the 38r? I thought the 38r was not rebuildable?

 

I have the kit from Riffraff linked by BadDogKuzz above. The kit contains four "447571-0820 Bolts" in it. It's a Garrett kit, #740659-0008. I hope these are the bolts you've listed.

To Rich, the injector o-rings were done in the summer, and a few weeks ago I went back in there fearing your "praire-*******" injector scenario. Everything seemed to be where I left it, and a straightedge across the tops of the solenoids on each bank seemed to show they were all equally seated (or I suppose equally praire-dogged - yikes!) Yeah, I know, hardly an accurate measurement, but it's all I got. I read somewhere you've got an ear for those things, how would you describe that sound?

 

You are correct the GTP38R is NOT rebuildable. The CHRA are different or at least machined differently. So there is no way to retrofit with ball bearing.

Also Saint..... Rich/ Tugly does have alot of experience with injector issues. And actually there still could be 2 differents things you have going on. But start with the turbo and solve that first and let's see if there is still an issue.

 

Rich has some of the best, not only technical, but humorous, write-ups on this forum. Always a must read

If you wouldn't mind positing them early, I'd appreciate it. If the failures are linked to wear items, then I'd much rather have the opportunity to pre-order parts and put 'em on the shelf for the day I need them, or when it's convenient to change them as maintenance. The turbo is scheduled for tomorrow am.

 

Well I am glad you are doing the turbo sooner than later. If there is an other issue I would say the same thing as Rich and is I would be thinking something along the lines of bad injector Orings. And in worst case it could be piston rings but honestly I doubt that.

 

Put some stank on that comment. Since I went through the nightmarish experience of my injectors being so loose they popped up and damaged a cup 700 miles from home, I now "enjoy" "Subsequent Child Syndrome". Anybody familiar with SCS doesn't really want to talk about it, and it's not a pleasant topic... suffice to say my sensitivity is heightened.

I have been called out on this, but I swear I learned my threshold for "hearing" a loose injector - it's 60-70 inch/pounds of torque on the injector bolt. I have a pretty quiet engine, so odd noises are easily detected by me now. Once I heard that noise, I'd pop the VCs and find the offending bolt, then try yet another method for getting it to stay at 130 inch/pounds. My ultimate solution was to clean and dry all threads (inspecting holes for debris), apply Loc Tite 242 blue thread locker (not the gel stuff), and torque it down. Run the engine with VCs off until the Engine Oil Temperature reaches at least 190 degrees F. Re-torque and button up. Now... let the truck set for 24 hours without running it.

Everybody I know says the same thing - "I never heard of such a thing, I just set the torque and it stays put." I say "I'm glad you don't have this problem" and let it go, but they never let poor Stinky join in any Powerstroke games.

There is a distinctive metal "tick" that can be heard, and you can even hear it faintly when decelerating downhill. That last part is the more interesting part: Injectors are off while engine braking, so an injector ticking noise in this condition is not a solenoid firing. I've had the VCs off so many times that I wore the metal down under the VC bolts. My next VC pop might involve a new VC... or two. That's pathetic.

 

That!

Hmmn. Yeah. Um. I got a "tick" that to me kinda sounds like an exhaust leak - except it does it both on and off the skinny pedal. But it does vary with engine RPM, very consistent. Dang, well at least the weather is nice for another go under the VC's. Once under there, could you see / feel / measure any play in the offending injector, or did you just go at 'em with the torque wrench and see what the torque on each bolt was?

And finally, regarding torques. Looking at the hold down bolts, clearly one bolt (I forget which, but I think it's the upper one below the electrical connection) has a shoulder that seats against the head, and the other seats against the hold down clamp (bracket, whatever) on the injector body. So the method I used was to tighten the first one down, and then torque the second. The first one I can't use a torque wrench on, without removing the solenoid, so it's approximated by feel (yeah, yeah ). The second is easily accessed with the wrench. Thoughts? Better method? Should I plan on a cup removal party next spring?