Hi guys. I'm new to this forum, but not to the 80 - 86 forum that I haunt. Anyway, I'm looking for some advice on an engine build and/or selection. However, before we get into that let me give some background, although if you aren't sleepy you can read the somewhat exhaustive thread on it at Dad's Truck Build, with the post that'll take you providing specific goals for the possibly to-be engine.

I have my father's truck, and while he was the 2nd owner it was his truck for many years and I want to resurrect it and keep it in the family for another few generations. However, the bed was crushed, the cab had rust in many places, and the original 351M was tired and, combined with the C6, returned 10 MPG no matter how it was driven. So I bought a Craigslist truck for $500 with a recently rebuilt 351M with an RV cam, Edelbrock Performer intake and Holley 1460, and swapped engines. But, while I had it out I pulled it down and found it had been bored .060" over and had an etched spot on one wall. I went ahead and installed it as well as swapped in a 1406 and a ZF5, the latter documented in Dad's ZF5 Swap. This combo RAN and the MPG jumped to a high of 16 at 62 MPH on the road when I leaned the 1406 a bit. But, I wound up going back to factory jetting as I didn't like the way it ran and would get 14 consistently at 65 MPH. In fact, I got 13.7 overall on a 2700 mile trip from OK to DE and back with a load of furniture, and we ran with the traffic on the interstate, meaning ~70.

But now the truck is in literally a million pieces as the cab is on a rotisserie at the body shop and the bed is soon to follow. This was intended to be a refresh, but the body man is trying to impress me as he wants to do my '69 Bee next, and the sheet metal is going to come back perfect. The frame has already been blasted and painted, and I'll powder-coat all the fasteners as it goes back together. I say all of that to say that it is now well down the "slippery slope" as others have pointed out. So, the little 351M is looking a bit ........ underwhelming and I'm considering upgrading.

As set out in the above link to the build, I have these criteria:

• Different: No "belly buttons". Not what everyone else is doing.
• Stout: I want torque at low RPM's. Enough to make pulling trailers a snap.
• Reliable: This is going to be passed on to hopefully two more generations, so it needs to be reliable and simple enough that it can be maintained.
• MPG: I'd like to continue to see 14 MPG at 65 on the highway. (Obviously I'd take more, but don't expect it.)

And, I've come up with a couple of alternatives:

1. [*]

So, I'm looking for input from y'all. I've read most of what's been posted about building 400's and think I understand most of the options. But, assuming you'd vote for the 400 (it is the 335 forum, after all) then what heads would you go with - Tim's Aussie heads & pistons to get quench, or massaged stock ones and Tim's pistons to match? What about a cam - roller? Other thoughts?

 

Well, being this is the 335 board, there won't be many votes for the 460. There's plenty of great performance parts available for a strong 400 build -- and in addition to not being "what everyone else is doing," you'll meet your torque requirements at about 80% of the weight of a 460.

We did a slow, slow build of the original 400 that came in my 1978 Bronco. The basic recipe we followed:

• Federal Mogul forged dish pistons (now discontinued; can pick up on Ebay a few times a year)
• Wieand Performer Plus intake (essentially the same as an Edelbrock)
• Holley 4150 (670 Truck Avenger)
• Comp Cams XE262h
• stock Aussie 302C heads, DSS pedestal rockers, hardened seats, Ferrea SS valves, Comp Cams spring/retainer kit
• Sanderson headers
• Milodon 8qt. oil pan/pickup
• blueprinted Melling HV from Precision Oil Pumps
• Mallory dizzy/ignition
• Cloyes double roller timing set
• Flow Kooler water pump

It's set up for about a 9.6:1 CR, and good for about 430lb/ft torque. Not too sure about the MPG, but would assume somewhere in the 12-14 range with appropriate gearing. Can run 87 octane pump gas all day without a hitch, largely thanks to the Aussie CC heads.

I think the idea of keeping the original block is a great idea. Let us know if you have any specific questions -- there aren't many of us around, but we can certainly steer you in the right direction.

 

Acct21 - Thanks! I appreciate the input. But, I do have some specific questions:

• What is the advantage to the Aussie heads? Is it the flow? The closed chambers creating quench? I ask because I know a guy that would port the stock heads and probably get good flow. And, I can get the compression ratio with TMI's pistons.
• Did you go with that cam due to someone's recommendations? We're there specific reasons for picking that cam?
• Did you consider going with roller lifter and/or rockers?
• How is your Bronco geared? What tranny and tires? How do you drive is when getting that MPG?

Thanks again.

 

Hey Gary, I got your PM...here's my feedback:

First off, I still have testing to do to give you great answers.

I'll tell you what I know so far.

- My build is solid, the car runs and sounds great.

- I have only run 93 Octane. I plan on trying 87 and then 85 if I don't have pinging.

I've been getting 8.7-9.5 MPG. That is on a 1978 Ford LTD and it is all around town, A/C running, lots of idling and WOT flooring it...not really going for MPG. I suspect I may get 12 or 13 on the freeway, but that will be about it.

The only thing I would do differently would be to go with roller rockers OTHER than Scorpion. I had to shim them .080" and they were still almost not quite shimmed enough. I am convinced the Scorpions have a geometry issue.

Other than that, Tim's recommendations are solid. A 650 CFM carb (Edelbrock Thunder AVS is great), Tim's Comp "Pantera grind" cam is a nice torque cam with a lumpy idle (but not too rough), Lunati hydraulic roller tie-bar lifters are a nice choice, Tim has a wide selection of push-rod lengths, and the KB pistons with Tim's mods are a great choice.

I run Aussie heads simply for the quench - I'm hoping I can get good power on lower octane as my experimentation continues. Also, one of my stock heads was cracked, so I needed new heads anyway...and Aussies are a good value. You could go with CHE's if you wnat to go a bit more crazy, but that will make your costs higher. I would talk to tim about stockers vs. Aussies and get his input.

I haven't been on the dyno yet...but I will. I'd really like to find (or build) some longtubes in lieu of the stock log manifolds. I know the stockers are holding me back a bit (although they are good for torque).

I hope that helps.

Shane

 

Shane - Thanks! That really helps. I'm a few months from making a decision, so really would like to know how the octane sorts out. I really want to run 87 to minimize the cost.

 

400 ford with tim's upgrades. aftermarket oilpan with windage tray/crank scraper. Purpose is to free up hrspwr. quench head is your best options but really like the Chi heads for 2v bolt up, helps with low end torque and takes weight off front of truck. upgrade your ignition system! If running a MSD Look into a phaseable rotor for more accurate firing, any questions drop a message. Transmission options are the ZF which i have also done myself, but something else has come out. Tranzilla 6 speed transmission they have a 4wd application starts around $4200 and goes up from their depending on your upgrades. double overdrive for cruising down highway, sweet. i will be working this into my budget next year. Also on your truck their are fiberglass upgrade options and to me the only gains are some are pretty cool looking and weight savings. also drivetrain if you run open diffs you will help with fuel mileage. skinny tires a must for fuel mileage. In my 400 i did several upgrades to shred oil in crankcase and basically just smoothing out areas that hold oil and get it to the crankcase quicker. keep oil off the crank and help keep weight off rotating assembly. Anything you can do to lighten up rotating weight is a good thing and some places you need stout and reliable and is what it is! Been working my 1970 ford crewcab and recently shredded about 500lbs off truck with these little upgrades. lots of work but will be worth it i the end. Good luck and keepin old iron alive one ford at a time!

 

Also on engine upgrade is work air intake system to draw in air from outside engine bay. help keep air temps down and make hrspwr. detonation prevention also. One more little piece of the puzzle to build a better combination in hot weather in OKLA. More to consider!

 

Wyoming - As you know I machined the adapter for the flywheel and have been running the ZF5. With it I'm in the 14 MPG range for cruising at 65, and turning ~2000. I think that's slow enough so don't need a different tranny. However, were I to go with a different one it would be an E4OD as it appears the younger generations don't know how to drive a stick.

Hadn't thought about a windage tray or scraper, but will look into that. My '69 Bee came from the factory with the tray, so I'm well aware of what they do.

I do like the idea of aluminum heads for the weight savings as well as the ability to run higher compression, but don't like the price. So, probably the furthest I'll go is Aussie heads.

As for cold air, I have a plan: Merge two HO air cleaners such that the resulting air cleaner has dual snorkels. I have the two housings and have already checked to see that it'll work. And, I've cut the core support on the driver's side and will use two hoses from the core support to the snorkels. While both snorkels will have a vacuum motor only the passenger's side will have hot air from the exhaust manifold - the driver's side snorkel will be blocked off where the hot air inlet would be.

The plan is to paint the engine Ford Dark Blue, including the Performer intake, and with the big and low HO intake the 1406 mixer won't be obvious. It'll look stock unless you know what you are looking at, and even if you do you'll think that's how Ford should have done it.

And, I'm looking into air flow under, over, and around the truck. This thread has a guy picking up .6 MPG on an F350 with an air dam, but he's already getting 26 MPG. But, he's got an unusual bed fairing, although he did pick up 1.5 MPG with just a flat tonneau. So, I did some looking. Turns out Ford actually sold an air dam on the 81-86 trucks in the Fuel Economy Package. I've located one of those NIB and will see what it does. And, I'm considering the tonneau for sure.

 

glad to hear the little gears are turning in your head! always trying to figure something out. also figure out a way to get the heat away from fuel line to keep the fuel cool. it all matters, little here a little their and will add up to something better. adios amigo. workin up in north dakota making some bank for toys!

 

They are always turning, although there are some who say the gears aren't meshed.

I'm thinking of getting fancy with the fuel line, meaning using something other than hose. Anyone have a recommendation?

 

.. Use steel brakeline for the fuel supply... hoses can fail and burn your truck up...

 

Thanks. I intend to use some kind of steel line, that's for sure. I'm thinking of going with stainless line for the brakes and bending my own, so would probably use that for the fuel line as well.

And I'm planning to re-route wiring and hoses to make the engine compartment as tidy as possible, even if it means splicing into the harness to lengthen some of the runs a bit. But, the smog gear is already off so it is pretty simple already.

 

.. Found a source for S.S. line at a good price?

.. Yes, I like to run elongated heater hoses on the fender, then dive them straight into the engine from the side, so they don't block the view of the engine/intake manifold/valve covers/sparkplugs/headers, etc...

 

Haven't looked for the tubing yet. Do you have a source?

 

.. Not that I like the price of so far... couple companies supply SS brake lines... one uses SS nuts/fittings on them... other, strangely, uses ordinary steel nuts/fittings that will rust... one is Inline Tube I think, I forget the name of the other one...