It sure would be a much cheaper and easier build wouldn't it..........

 

A chevy small block 350 compared to a 400 ford. Or small block 400 chevy. still to make equal power is still kinda tricky if built to equal hrspwr. The 400 has short rods with a 1.46 rod ratio if i remember correctly and have to install longer rods like 350 rod 5.7" and correct pistons. built one of these yrs ago and ran great, street racer on nitrous 250 shot. Cylinder head options the clevelands are stout pieces to compete with, canted valve head and chevy is not. factory is 23 degree. the ford cams have the advantage because of the lifter dia in hyd cams. roller cams makes them equal. Building for low end the 400 ford wins because of stroke! 400 chevy is a good engines with siamese cylinder but need to upgrade rods and pistons for sure for durability on street. Factory 400 not really designed for high rpms and durability long term. 2 bolt chevy 400 stronger than 4 bolt. other than that i don't know much about them! Have seen both do great things!

 

Wyoming - I think, and hope, the guys were just pulling my chain. Winding me up, as the Brit's would say. They already know that I won't even stop and look at a vehicle that has another brand engine in it, and that I'm tired of people sticking a 350/350 combo in everything. As some say, those are "belly-button" - everyone has one. Where's the fun in doing that?

I'm going to build up the original engine from Dad's truck - that decision has been made. And, they know that. They are just having fun. I hope.

 

I have built both engines 400 ford and 400 chevy 350 chevy and many other over the yrs. Very familiar with all of these engines. The cookie cutter engines aren't fun to build anymore. Like engines that make me think a little. Thats why i built a cobrajet headed 400 ford. seen one built about 20 yrs ago with wood intake port spacers. truck ran awesome and kicked but in a mudtruck class and turned 6800rpms pretty easy!

 

Have you ran the cam specs i sent you? also figureing ramp rates with desktop dyno is tricky. I know mpg cams are not your normal ramp rates. He likes to get that valve open or closed quickly. Comp cams have numbers like -10 or -8 and these are cam profiles and ramp rates they use on their cams. Used to run some -10 and ran great. used to mess with this stuff back in the day and now i just use mpg anymore. Many good cam grinders out their and mpg is a good one. Ask scott on what type of lift at different opening rates? Tell him exactly what your checking and he can make the cam whatever you want! Custom cam guys can do what you want. This is your money and truck and build as you need for the low low fee$$.

 

Where have I heard this custom grind stuff before?????

 

Wyoming - I haven't run the cam through DD yet, but will soon. However, I don't think DD will give an accurate result as I don't know the ramp rates, and from what you are saying they vary significantly.

Bruno - Yes, you've been touting finding a custom cam guy for some time. In fact, see my response to you on Dad's Truck Build wherein I give you credit. Maybe Scott is the guy.

 

This Scott guy does sound knowledgeable about the 351M/400 motors. Hopefully he knows the dynamics of them well enough to know what other aftermarket heads will do for them. I don't like the notion of using procomp anything. If Mr. Gasket made aftermarket heads for that motor I might use them before Procomp.

I like your idea about using the Edelbrocks. They have been around for awhile and seem to have a pretty good R&D dept there. Then again I wouldn't flinch at using Trickflow either. The mainstay of their business is making performance cylinder heads where Edelbrock seems to dabble in a little bit of everything.Trickflow is starting to do the same. I have a set of their hardened pushrods in the Bronco.

Which reminds me, Gary are you going to run hardened pushrods and guide plates? They may not be necessary if you aren't going with a full roller top end.

Another issue I was pondering is the stroke of the 400. Since the motor is a stroker version of the M will it just have to wind up a little to make the best torque numbers? Are you expecting too much from the lower end of the operating range of this motor?

 

mpgheads, scott main. englewood colorado. If you want to get educated on fords scott is a guy to know about in ford world. Check up on his enginemaster builds. If you are not familar with enginemaster competitions then you need to get educated with this challenge. Scott has ran a version of the 400 ford in this challenge and placed in the top 6 in the country. this paticular challenge he got beat by a custom 400 ford by jon kaase. Their was a $100,000.00 on the line and several buys brought out 400 fords in this paticular challenge with OEM blocks i speak of. Scott has been pushing the fords for over 20 yrs that i know of in colorado. their are several good guys out their and scott is one of them. mpg has ran big blocks and small blocks and clevors in this competition. His cam is called the thundermaker cam. He doesn't really advertise but word of mouth get around. used mpg for over 10 yrs now on different occasion for several engine over the yrs. Any question drop me a note. keeping old iron alive one ford at a time.Scott cuts his own cams and has cnc programs for many different cyl heads and cam break in machines and other tricky stuff out of his shop.

 

Wyoming - Thanks for that. I knew Scott had gone to Engine Masters several times, but didn't know that much about the results. I'll follow up with him soon as he's gotten busy. I wonder if he offers pistons and a rotating assembly as Tim does.

Bruno - That should answer most of your questions. But a longer stroke usually lowers the RPM of max torque, so the 400 pulls like a tractor. And, both the M and the 400 have larger mains than the W's, so they are quite robust. In fact there is some discussion on the 335 Series forum of the bottom end being adequate for turbocharging.

And the Edelbrock heads come with guide plates, so I will have to use hardened pushrods if I use those heads. But I still need to talk to Scott about heads as they sell a re-worked CHI head, although I don't know the price nor much about it - yet.

 

don't know exactly how many but he has competed the first 10 competitions if i remember correctly and has missed i think 2 competitons. On rotating assemblys mpg does 1 at a time. he could make something up for any customer. Have spoke to scott on several occasions on the 400 a while back. he has lots of dyno time that i would dream to have under my belt for experience. they have some cool tools to play with. On your valvecovers scott could cnc something on a blank valve cover GARY?

 

you can put in a custom cam and input your valve lift and change things up and play around and see what happens. done this many times. Can input at .050 and .100 and different combinations. Getting the valve open and shut at the perfect moment. Many different ways to tweak a lobe profile to achieve best results. ramp rates and cam profiles, this is making me tingley inside. talk later and see if i can come up with a cam profile.forgot to mention also the timing can definelty change your compression also on how it blows down the cylinder and overlap. Just thinking about stuff.

 

Ran the 2008 with a 400 ford and several other guys. these are extreme engines for factory blocks. Average torque/hrspwr from 2500 to 6500 rpm if i remember correctly. kasse block from 2007 is extreme. Believe he has a video if you go to kaaseracing site on 400 and chi heads.

 

I'll play with Desktop Dyno a bit more to see about using cam profiles.

As for the Engine Masters, I've been following them for some time. One reason is that I know Eric Weingartner, of Weingartner Racing. But, now I see that the 400 Ford has been pretty successful in them.

By the way, have you seen my thread asking about the FordMuscle article? I'm wanting to know if anyone has subscribed and, therefore read, the article and if there's meat in it.

 

Just got off the phone with Scott of MPG Heads. Reminded him of my goals of very strong torque down low as well as good fuel economy. And, while he suggested last time that I go with stock heads, that I was kind of hoping to go with aluminum heads to let me run more compression and ensure I won't have detonation. With that he suggested:

• Heads: Go with the Edelbrock heads as they are the best bang for the buck. They have a really good combustion chamber and take very little ignition advance - probably 35 to 36 degrees, total. (Honest, I didn't even say "Edelbrock" prior to that in the conversation.)
• Cam: Don't even consider roller, go flat-tappet the whole way. His cam would be 200/205 degrees @ .050", 112 separation, 110 intake centerline, and .460" lift. Cost is $225 with lifters.
• Push rods: Need moly rods with those heads, and the good ones are $125 - and he can tell me exactly what length I need as he's done plenty of these. (To me that is a big plus!)
• Engine kit: He sells a kit inc pistons (giving 9.5:1 with those heads), rings, bearings, gaskets, freeze plugs, oil pump, and timing set for $325. But if I want moly rings and a double-roller timing set add $50, for a total of $375.
• Crank: He has a 400 crank ready to go and it is $200.
• Balance: Have it balanced. But, don't bother taking the parting lines off of the rods. And, I can use the existing flywheel and damper from the 351M. (That's good news as I thought the damper was different. But, I'm worried about using the flywheel as it is drilled for an 11" clutch, not the 12" unit that the 400's used. However, I have moved the starter gear forward, so maybe I should drill it for the 12" pressure plate while it is off.)
• Rockers: He recommends the Scorpion rollers as they are US made and have a life-time guarantee. And they are on sale until the end of the month for $250 instead of $310.
• Zero decking: Don't bother. The extra cost isn't worth what little advantage in quench and compression you get. Typically the 400's pistons are .015" down, and that is where his 9.5:1 is spec'd.
• Exhaust: Stock manifolds are out for fuel economy. Go headers, for sure.

I told him I'd put all of this in Desktop Dyno and asked what he thought of DD. He said it isn't very accurate, but thought that this engine will be well over 400 in torque and that I would be impressed.