Ok, I will look. Thanks. I'm actually quite a ways from needing it, but I'm keeping track of sources. The body and frame are at the body shop. The frame has been blasted and painted, and the cab is on my rotisserie in epoxy primer. He's sanding that to find the dents, massaging them, and then will replace rusted panels like corners. I'm guessing that it will be September before the truck comes home.

 

(Note: I've posted this same thing in Dad's Truck Build thread in the 80-86 forum.)

Ok, I've started doing some research, and have read quite a bit online regarding EFI systems. And, I've learned a lot, although there is much more to learn.

However, before getting into thoughts about EFI I think it is important to consider the cost of engine mods and the benefits thereof. In fact, I've been wondering where the best bang for the buck is with respect to aftermarket heads vs roller cam vs EFI. And it occurred to me that Edelbrock sells all three of those and would be a good place from which to get advice. So today I spent an hour on the phone with Preston, who is one of their EFI techs but has experience elsewhere as well.

I explained my goals for the engine as well as my experiences/capabilities with carbs as well as electronics. And then I asked in what order I should install the above options. His response was:

1. Heads: Their aluminum heads cost $2200, but would give a good increase in both torque and economy due to the boost in compression ratio of about 1 point. And, the closed-chamber design also helps with torque and economy. Plus, I could continue to run 87 octane gas even with the CR of 9.4:1.
2. Roller cam: They don't have a roller cam for the 400, but it is probably safe to assume that those that do price their components roughly the same as they do, which would mean $250 for the cam, $600 for the lifters, and $400 for roller rockers, giving a total of $1250 for a full-roller setup. But, while there is a significant reduction in friction that may not show up in MPG. What the roller setup really provides is the ability to handle longer durations than flat-tappet cams. However, long duration cams aren't that helpful in gaining MPG, and are really a plus for those seeking more power. And, they pretty much do away with the problem of having a cam go flat.
3. EFI: Basically there are two choices:
   • Throttlebody: Edelbrock's E-Street is an example of this genre, and are good replacements for carbs. But, according to Preston, given my experience with carbs the advantages aren't all that significant - especially given the cost of $2800. It would bring some improved economy as it can lean the mix at cruise while enrichening it immediately when the throttle increases, which will enhance driveability. But, he doesn't think it would be worth it given that I'm comfortable tuning a carb. And, since E-Street doesn't control ignition timing. (Note: Atomic's throttlebody EFI can control ignition timing - if the ignition system is MSD's. But that raises the price several hundred dollars above the base $2500, and brings it into the realm of the Pro-Flo. But other brands can control the DS system, although they are also in the same price realm as the Pro-Flo.)
     
   • MPFI: These systems are much more sophisticated than the throttlebody ones as they can tune the mix very accurately and also adjust the ignition timing. However, their Pro-Flo goes for about $3500 but isn't available for the 351M/400. But, even if it were he would do the heads first, roller cam second, and EFI last. And, if I decide to piece together a multi-port system he strongly encouraged buying a purpose-made intake instead of adding injector ports to something like their Performer intake. He said that a proper EFI manifold will be single-plane instead of the dual-plane arrangement of the Performer, which is necessary with a carb to give good low RPM fuel distribution. But a multi-port EFI manifold doesn't have fuel-dropout problems so works well with a single plane manifold.

Ok, so what are your thoughts? Do you agree with Preston?

 

.. Hard to justify EFI since a properly tuned carb. will give about the same MPG... and the early EFI's didn't flow well and gave less HP... can go single or dual plane with 8 port injectors EFI since it's just airflow in the intake runners... fuel dropout is more of a problem with carb.s and lowest rise dual planes, since the fuel in the lower runners has to be risen back up to head port level in the low rise dual planes... not much of a problem in high rise dual planes and single planes, since any pooled fuel can simply drain off into the heads via gravity and be burned/gone... I noticed how much more cleanly my 351W started and worked with a high rise VictorJr. single plane compared to the stock Ford 2 & 4 bbl. low rise dual planes I had been using earlier...

.. I'm leaning toward KB149 mini-domed hypereutectic 351C pistons modified by TM (if he can do so) to work in my 351M converted to a 400 with 351M/400 rods along with stock 2bbl. heads for my build... may look around for some of the early, better flowing 400 2 bbl. heads... probably a Summit K5201 cam/lifters kit... 650-750CFM Holley carb.(I'd prefer 750 but have a 650 laying around)... may just mod a stock 2bbl. intake to work with a 4bbl. carb... trying to keep the cost of this toy low while fairly high HP, torque, reliability, and MPG...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb149-030

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k5201

 

Buzz - I sorta agree with you on justifying EFI. However, I know there's more to be had in the way of MPG with the 351M/ZF5 combo that I was running. I say that because I leaned the Edelbrock 1406 via a Carter Strip Kit I have, which has far more jets and rods than the E'brock kit has. Using that kit and the Edelbrock AFR meter I have I got it up to 16 MPG at 62 MPH on the road. But, it still needed some tuning as it wasn't fun to drive since it was a bit too lean.

So, if EFI could lean it up for cruise but enrichen it quickly when you ease into the throttle it would give better MPH and still good drivability. And, that's exactly what EFI is good at doing. I'm currently getting 14 MPG on the highway and the extra 2 MPG, which is ~15%, is the bottom end of what people are saying I should see. That means the break-even point for a $3500 expenditure is in a bit less than 100,000 miles, assuming gas at $3.50/gallon. I don't expect to put 100K miles on the truck any time soon, so the payoff would be somewhat delayed.

I've pretty much decided to go with Aussie 302C heads, assuming I can find them, and with Tim's balanced rotating assembly - including pistons. That's because everything I've ever heard or read said that efficiency requires higher compression ratio. Tim's pistons will give me the CR I'm looking for and the quench I'd like to have to prevent detonation.

 

just checkin in. You have been doing your homework. NICE!

 

how much cylinder pressure depends on the fuel! simple! I live at high elevation and run as much as i can! I run and play at 4000' to 9000+ often. Sea level is 14.7psi air pressure which is great for cylinder pressure. 4000' is around 12.5psi and hurts cylinder pressure. Getting a good camshaft guy for your application is critical. My camshaft guy is www.mpgheads.com in englewood colo. Scott has nailed all my cams on the money. good input to him and i get good product. Several good guys out their and i know mpg/scott is one of them. He specializes in ford and very familar with your engine. good luck and like you still doing my homework and trying to get the most out of what i got. built several engines over the yrs from cleveland to 390's to several different variation of the 460. all with MPGheads cams and parts.

 

.. That's what the power valve in a Holley carb. does... use a spread bore Holley carb. (like a Rochester Q-Jet) and run on efficient smallish primaries for MPG, huge secondaries for POWER... tune till it gets 25 MPG hiway like the new trucks do...

 

I see my reputation hasn't preceded me. I'm probably called the Holley-hater behind my back on the 80 - 86 forum as I remove them and install Edelbrocks. I grew up with Carters, like WillCarterFourBarrels on my 58 Impala w/a 348, AluminumFourBarrels on various 327's, and AirValveSecondaries on later Mopars. But, I bought a '69 Super Bee new in May of that year and it came with a Holley. My first introduction. Rather, baptism by fire. Literally. Backfires. Leaking bowl gaskets. Blown power valves. Etc. I'm told by reliable sources that all of those engineering mistakes have been fixed in later carbs, but billions of them are still on the street and still have the same problems. Carters, now called Edelbrocks, don't come with those issues.

When I bought the 81 F150 4x4 w/a built 351M that I call Rusty it had a Holley 1460 with stock jetting. Poor idle, blubbering part throttle response around town, wonderful full-throttle response, and 12 MPG. I replaced it w/an Edelbrock 1406 right out of the box, and the idle improved significantly, the part throttle response was much more crisp, MPG increased to 14, and the WOT response was a bit less.

I'm happy to give up a few ponies on the top end for better idle, part throttle response, and MPG. Yes, I'm sure that it is quite possible to get the Holley tuned to the point it could match the E'brock. I mean, I have an AFR meter, I have vacuum gauges, tachs, and even an app for my iPhone to register acceleration, so I'm sure I can tune it. But, why bother when the E'brock does most of what I want out of the box and doesn't leak?

My previous post said the Edelbrock "... needed some tuning as it wasn't fun to drive since it was a bit too lean." I could do the tuning on it if I wanted - even to the point of making my own rods since even my Carter Strip Kit doesn't have a jet/rod combo that gives me quite what I want. And, I could go with a stiffer spring under the piston to bring the rods up earlier than the 5" of vacuum it came out of the box set for. But again, why? If I get it absolutely right at today's temp and this altitude it'll be wrong tomorrow when the temp changes or when I take it anywhere with lower or higher altitude.

IOW, if I'm going to spend the time to get my fuel system "right" I'd prefer to do it with something that adjusts for temp, altitude, and even the way the engine is running. That means EFI. And, eventually I think I'll do that. But for now I'll stick with the E'brock, thank you very much.

 

Here's an update on my engine planning. Having talked to Tim @ TMI, to Edelbrock, to Comp Cams, and now Scott at mpgheads I've come up with four approaches for the heads and intake:

1. TMI: Tim has a top-end package, which includes Procomp aluminum heads, Procomp's Cleveland single plane intake, and the spacers and gaskets to bolt them to the heads. Tim says the heads are a Chinese knock-off of the CHI 3V head, which has a raised intake port, and initially they weren't very good but they've gotten a lot better. The heads are complete with stainless valves and whatever springs are needed for the cam I'm going to use, and are ready to be bolted on for $1795. Tim said they would give 10.5:1 with his stock style pistons, and with the right cam would probably live on 87 octane gas. I'm not sold on this approach given the CR and the single plane intake.
2. Edelbrock: Amazon has the aluminum Edelbrock heads for $829/ea with stainless valves and springs, free shipping, ready to bolt on. These are 60 CC heads and with Tim's 2344 pistons would give 9.4:1.
3. Aussie: I've talked to a guy that Tim put me onto and he does have the 302C heads he wants to sell. He's had them about 10 years and has put maybe 10K miles on them. They were ported by Induction Research and would come with the valves and springs for $600. And, for another $100 he'll throw in a set of SVO roller rockers. I told him what I want, which is low-end torque, and he agreed the Edelbrocks might be good for that, although he said not to use them if I'm chasing horsepower as they don't flow all that well. In fact, he said his 302C's probably flow as well as the E'brocks. Anyway, with the 302C's and Tim's 2344 pistons I'd have 9.4:1 again. But, with shipping probably costing $100 I'd have $700 in the heads and will have to pull them down to check for burned valves and send them out if any are. Further, I might have to change the springs depending on which ones he is running. He won't be back home for two weeks so I have a while to think about it.
4. MPG: Today I talked to Scott at mpgheads, as Wyoming recommended, and discussed both heads and cams. He's to call back to take the conversation further, but he says that the stock heads are just fine for my purposes, and coupled with Sealed Power's dished pistons give ~9:1 CR and will live well with 87 octane gas. And, he suggested a cam with 200/205 degrees of duration @ .050" lift, .460" total lift at the valve, 112 degrees of lobe separation, and the intake center line would be 108 degrees. Further, he sells a "master kit" with pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, timing set, cam, and lifters for $400. And, he says it is "the good stuff", like a Melling pump, cast or moly rings, etc.

I have been leaning to using Edelbrock's aluminum heads as well as their cam and intake. But today's discussion with Scott has me wondering - especially when he said the Edelbrock cam is a Chevy cam on a Ford blank. He thinks I'd be much better off with what I'm looking for, which is low RPM torque and fuel economy, by going with his mild cam.

I've made several runs on Desktop Dyno using various cams and have attached the results of three of those runs, all of which use the Edelbrock heads and intake, HP exhaust manifolds and mufflers, and a 600 CFM carb. Looks to me like Scott's cam may be better at lower RPM than 2000, which is as low as Desktop Dyno will go. Thoughts?

 

When are you ever going to be above 4500 RPM's? I rarely see anything over 3500 RPM with my driving habits. I think your latest advice from the MPG guy has been the best. That cam I recommended would go good with what he is suggesting.

just my $.02

 

And. for those on here that didn't see that suggestion, it was???? (Remember, this is a different forum.)

 

That might help a bit Gary It was this cam http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...view/make/ford

It has a good profile and I think it is pretty close to what you are looking for. I would definitely run it by your MPG guy and see what he says about it. This would be really good if you re work the stock heads because the exhaust is held open a little longer than the intake. It will give it a nice pronounced exhaust tone too.

Here are the specs: Adv. Duration 255/263, Lift .465/.495

 

The Ecam is still making better power than the others at low RPM and that's what it takes to get the load in motion. The MPG cam is sucking hind tit if I am reading the chart right. They all seem to be within $0.02 of each other from 3500 RPM down. However, the MPG cam really tanks compared to the rest of them after that.

Is the graph based on using a different intake and cylinder head than stock? If so , then run the numbers with the stockers and see what that does.

 

The runs are all using the Edelbrock heads. Can't really run the stock heads through Desktop Dyno as I don't know anything about their flow rates at different valve openings, which is required for DD. So, I kept everything the same except for the cam.

 

Well the chart says a lot. did scott send you a cam card. His ramp rates are a little different on cam profiles. Are all the cams the same lift. Question is on the duration and intake valve opening timing what Degree. Scott likes to cheat the valve timing for cylinder pressure. Just to let other 400 guys know he's a 400 ford engine master finalist also. he knows stuff we don't! dyno time big time. The little gears are turning and meshed!