Help wanted: Mechanical Engineers
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
Help wanted: Mechanical Engineers
Lately, I've been quiet about this issue that has haunted me since October (when I first replaced the injectors): Injector hold-down bolts. Some of you may be saying "But Tugly, I thought you resolved that long ago." Nope. This one solitary problem has cost me as much money in stress, repairs, parts, mechanics, and unexpected travel expenses as the sticks did. I have tried many things in the 13-15 times under the valve covers, but here are a couple of things I've had to rule out:
- Wiring the bolt heads - if my luck stays on track, I'll have a broken wire wandering loose in with valve springs, lifters, and push rods.
- Red thread locker on the threads - the blue doesn't work and I'm afraid I'll never get those bolts out with red if I ever need to do injectors again. One could say "But Tugly, just get the engine warm and they will come out." Again, my luck would have me eventually pulling an injector because I can't run the truck... think broken nozzle.
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What did Ken think? Did you get together with him?
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 203
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From: Delaware
If you plan to use star washers. Use the external ones. the ring is on the inside. International used them for years on countersunk water pump mounting and bell housing mounting bolts. Many were phillips heads and you had to used hand impact drivers to loosen them.
It's a Van Gogh
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 7,798
Likes: 1,331
From: Elk Grove, CA
Here's some options from the land of headers, but I'd try the red Locktite first. Or maybe the Percy's, never tried those but I like the concept for something living under the VCs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proform-66751-Wedge-Lock-Locking-Header-Bolts-3-8-16-750-Long-12-Pack/360674282014?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D15851%26meid%3D8385584350685035101%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D7578%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D360651369386%26
Stage 8 header bolts
Percy's internal locking header bolt
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proform-66751-Wedge-Lock-Locking-Header-Bolts-3-8-16-750-Long-12-Pack/360674282014?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D15851%26meid%3D8385584350685035101%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D7578%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D360651369386%26
Stage 8 header bolts
Percy's internal locking header bolt
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
Ken has spent some time under there when I had helicoils and thread inserts on hand... in case the threads in the heads were damaged. He tested the threads and they're all good, plus I am on my third set of injector bolts. Stinky has stumped every mechanic I know, so no amount of money is going to dig me out of this. I have to come up with something before I list Stinky in Craigs list... he's just holding down the asphalt in the driveway nowadays. I get everything running perfect, but I can't even drive home from the live tuning session without at least one injector doing the prairie dog dance. Whatever I come up with... I just want to pull my boat to the water and not stop on the side of the road on a 100-degree day to spin VC bolts. My Toyota Tacoma-sized pickup did it for three years without whining... as it neared 200K on the clock.
Note - my sense of humor is waning.
Note - my sense of humor is waning.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,298
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From: Damon (South East Texas)
You may try Loctite 640 - Full Product List Loctite - Henkel under the heads of the bolts and use 242 on the threads. I use the 640 on the bushings and feed bolts of my 4R100 and it provides retaining on smooth surfaces.
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stinson 108-1
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,015
Likes: 7
From: south jersey
Rich, I think I would try what Roland said first, then look into locking header bolts. Check out the ones made by Breslin, they are called split locks, interesting concept, expands the bottom of the bolt, no c clips to come off. Don't know about size availablity though. There has to be an issue with the threads in the head. Thats the only variable left.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,613
Likes: 8
From: North Georgia
Just because a final tap runs clean in and bottoms out doesnt mean they arent fubar
I think you stretched them way back in the beginning when we were all screaming at you to get a dang torque wrench.
I would NOT advocate deviations from the oem head/shoulder design.
Threads however are a slightly different matter.
Go to a specialized bolt place with a fresh injector bolt... and one of your original bolts.
They should have all the gauges necessary to qc them.
You may... just slightly maybe able to find bolts of very slightly varying specifications due to the machining process that can fill the void in the heads threads from the super dooper stretch out you gave them.
Your other options are... as previously discussed... helicoils...
Or... torque them down where a tig welder is handy... a little zip on each one and... prarie dog stew...
I think you stretched them way back in the beginning when we were all screaming at you to get a dang torque wrench.
I would NOT advocate deviations from the oem head/shoulder design.
Threads however are a slightly different matter.
Go to a specialized bolt place with a fresh injector bolt... and one of your original bolts.
They should have all the gauges necessary to qc them.
You may... just slightly maybe able to find bolts of very slightly varying specifications due to the machining process that can fill the void in the heads threads from the super dooper stretch out you gave them.
Your other options are... as previously discussed... helicoils...
Or... torque them down where a tig welder is handy... a little zip on each one and... prarie dog stew...
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 797
Likes: 1
From: UT
Tug, I've used Red LT on lots of things over the years. I always remove them cold with NO heat and dont have a problem. After a few times of removing them and recoating them, it starts to build up in the threads. Chase the threads with a tap and your good to go. The loctite is a white powder when removed.
Another option for washers if your set on going that route is a brand name Nordlock. For some guys that could never get their exhaust header bolts to stay put, these have worked for them.
http://www.nord-lock.com/products/we.../introduction/
Also, you might want to double check your torque wrench. I've seen the spring take a set before(assuming it a click type) and the reading be far off. A friend couldn't get his head gasket to seal. Turned out to be his torque wrench.
Another option for washers if your set on going that route is a brand name Nordlock. For some guys that could never get their exhaust header bolts to stay put, these have worked for them.
http://www.nord-lock.com/products/we.../introduction/
Also, you might want to double check your torque wrench. I've seen the spring take a set before(assuming it a click type) and the reading be far off. A friend couldn't get his head gasket to seal. Turned out to be his torque wrench.
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
That would assume 5 bad torque wrenches, including woodnthings' very expensive aircraft torque wrench. I agree that needed to be checked... and it really has.
Now... if I can just afford the tool to test the twist in my head.
Thread Starter
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Here's some options from the land of headers, but I'd try the red Locktite first. Or maybe the Percy's, never tried those but I like the concept for something living under the VCs.
Wedge Lock Header bolts
Stage 8 header bolts
Percy's internal locking header bolt
Wedge Lock Header bolts
Stage 8 header bolts
Percy's internal locking header bolt
Another option for washers if your set on going that route is a brand name Nordlock. For some guys that could never get their exhaust header bolts to stay put, these have worked for them.
Nord-Lock wedge-locking washers | Secure your critical bolted joints with the original lock washer from the bolting experts
Nord-Lock wedge-locking washers | Secure your critical bolted joints with the original lock washer from the bolting experts
Thread Starter
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
From the Loctite website:
For thru hole applications, such as a nut and bolt combination, threadlocker is applied just to the bolt, coating 3 or 4 threads, going all the way around the diameter, and then assemble. On the other hand, it's critical to apply the threadlocker to both male and female threads for blind hole applications such as a bolt going into a closed housing. If it's applied just to the male threads and torqued down, air pressure will force most of the product back out as you assemble. This will result in incomplete coverage and partial cure only, leading to premature failures.
The same page told me I screwed up when I bought the red stick threadlocker. It's a freaking bolt. How'd this get so complicated?
For thru hole applications, such as a nut and bolt combination, threadlocker is applied just to the bolt, coating 3 or 4 threads, going all the way around the diameter, and then assemble. On the other hand, it's critical to apply the threadlocker to both male and female threads for blind hole applications such as a bolt going into a closed housing. If it's applied just to the male threads and torqued down, air pressure will force most of the product back out as you assemble. This will result in incomplete coverage and partial cure only, leading to premature failures.
The same page told me I screwed up when I bought the red stick threadlocker. It's a freaking bolt. How'd this get so complicated?