buying a radiator
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,308
Likes: 19
From: Las Vegas, NV
what are you referring to when you say front and rear mounting?
Also, for point of reference, I have no fan shroud. I don't think I have ever seen the i6 with a shroud in these older trucks. That is just my personal experience though.
Also, for point of reference, I have no fan shroud. I don't think I have ever seen the i6 with a shroud in these older trucks. That is just my personal experience though.
Cross-Country
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
6cyls came with shrouds only if equipped with a/c or a supercooling radiator package...from what I've read. Standard and a/c radiators mount to the radiator support and are front mount. Supercooling radiators mount to brackets extending from the radiator support and their mounting holes are on the rear face closer to the motor.
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
From: AL
My new radiator sprang a leak. The top tank started leaking at the joint for the core. I'm buying an aluminum one from a local company. I called the 800 radiator in Birghminham and they emailed me a prepaid UPS return label with no hassle. I have to send it to them then they will give me a refund.
I bought a 2 row alum radiator from Brice Thomas radiator in Gadston, AL. It is higher than the Champion but made here about two hours from my house. It was $528 shipped to my door. I bought the auto version but they have a manual trans version that is cheaper. I bought model number FOR 4057AT. It looks very nice. I plan to install it this weekend.
Brice Thomas Radiator
I bought a 2 row alum radiator from Brice Thomas radiator in Gadston, AL. It is higher than the Champion but made here about two hours from my house. It was $528 shipped to my door. I bought the auto version but they have a manual trans version that is cheaper. I bought model number FOR 4057AT. It looks very nice. I plan to install it this weekend.
Brice Thomas Radiator
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 891
Likes: 0
From: Mayfield, KY
Interesting read. I love the look of that aluminum radiator in this post.
Cap-A-Radiator
BTW I am ordering a Champion on Friday.....mine was to rotted to core according to the shop. It is sitting in the scrap pile now waiting to be someone's door knocker.....
Cap-A-Radiator
BTW I am ordering a Champion on Friday.....mine was to rotted to core according to the shop. It is sitting in the scrap pile now waiting to be someone's door knocker.....
Cross-Country
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
That sucks. I purchased my 433318 radiator from Advanced online while I was offshore and had it shipped to my house. It looks great and fit great. All brass and copper like original. The shroud I ordered from NPD to fit a 6cyl didn't fit though.
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,255
Likes: 199
From: Phoenix, Az.
Here are a couple thoughts guys. Watch the front/rear mounting end the hose mounting position on the radiator you buy. I would only go Brass if I wanted the original look. Aluminum transmits heat SO much better.
As far as the 3 or 4 row goes, Never go 4 row. All the coolant the 4 row adds is what,about a quart? But it is a lot wider than a 2 row aluminum or 3 row Brass. Makes it so much harder on a fan to create the necessary air flow through the fins needed to keep a motor cool. Notice I said "fins" and not rows (tubes)? We have to worry about "fin count" just as much as your ol' lady worries about thread count. LOL! The fins help hold and direct the air around the tubes long enough for heat transfer as it's passing through. The wider the radiator usually creates less fins so the fan can actually pull air through. 4 row rads usually equal less cooling fins and small amount more coolant. There was only one 4 row Ford ever put out from the factory. For early Dents. As I recall it's part number was D3TZ8005G. Bill can back me up here. BACK IN THE DAY I've sold it to guys and a few later told me their 3 row cooled BETTER. Ford went back to 3 rows for a/c and t/t after that.
As far as the 3 or 4 row goes, Never go 4 row. All the coolant the 4 row adds is what,about a quart? But it is a lot wider than a 2 row aluminum or 3 row Brass. Makes it so much harder on a fan to create the necessary air flow through the fins needed to keep a motor cool. Notice I said "fins" and not rows (tubes)? We have to worry about "fin count" just as much as your ol' lady worries about thread count. LOL! The fins help hold and direct the air around the tubes long enough for heat transfer as it's passing through. The wider the radiator usually creates less fins so the fan can actually pull air through. 4 row rads usually equal less cooling fins and small amount more coolant. There was only one 4 row Ford ever put out from the factory. For early Dents. As I recall it's part number was D3TZ8005G. Bill can back me up here. BACK IN THE DAY I've sold it to guys and a few later told me their 3 row cooled BETTER. Ford went back to 3 rows for a/c and t/t after that.
Ford Parts Specialist
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 88,826
Likes: 785
From: Simi Valley, CA
1967 F100/350 352 & 1968/72 F100/350 360/390: TWO different radiator sizes, TWO different radiator supports, TWO different fan shrouds.
C7TZ-16138-A .. Radiator Support-Use with Standard/Xtra Cooling & A/C radiators that are: 26 1/4" wide x 19 3/4" high.
D3TZ-8146-C (replaced C8TZ-8146-K) .. Fan Shroud-Use with Standard/Xtra Cooling & A/C radiators / Marked on upper left corner: C8TA-S or D3TA-DA / Reproduced
Additional applications: 1973/76 F100/350 360/390 / 1973/74 F100/250 460 with standard cooling radiator.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C7TZ-16138-B .. Radiator Support-Use with Super Cooling Radiator that is: 26 1/4" wide x 24 1/4" high.
C7TZ-8146-B .. Fan Shroud-Use with Super Cooling Radiator / Marked on upper left corner: C7TA-H or D2TA-HA or D3TA-JA / Reproduced
Additional applications: 1973/76 F100/350 360/390.
----------------------------------------------------------
D3TZ-8005-G (replaced C7TZ-8005-E) .. Super Cooling Radiator - Has a HUGE top tank that is wider and deeper than the other radiators.
1967 F100/350 352 / 1968/76 F100/350 360/390 / 1973/79 F100/350 460 / 1977 F100/350 351M/400.
> > Carpenter has repro'd both these fan shrouds, both are listed under these Ford part numbers, both have their specific specs listed. < <
C7TZ-16138-A .. Radiator Support-Use with Standard/Xtra Cooling & A/C radiators that are: 26 1/4" wide x 19 3/4" high.
D3TZ-8146-C (replaced C8TZ-8146-K) .. Fan Shroud-Use with Standard/Xtra Cooling & A/C radiators / Marked on upper left corner: C8TA-S or D3TA-DA / Reproduced
Additional applications: 1973/76 F100/350 360/390 / 1973/74 F100/250 460 with standard cooling radiator.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C7TZ-16138-B .. Radiator Support-Use with Super Cooling Radiator that is: 26 1/4" wide x 24 1/4" high.
C7TZ-8146-B .. Fan Shroud-Use with Super Cooling Radiator / Marked on upper left corner: C7TA-H or D2TA-HA or D3TA-JA / Reproduced
Additional applications: 1973/76 F100/350 360/390.
----------------------------------------------------------
D3TZ-8005-G (replaced C7TZ-8005-E) .. Super Cooling Radiator - Has a HUGE top tank that is wider and deeper than the other radiators.
1967 F100/350 352 / 1968/76 F100/350 360/390 / 1973/79 F100/350 460 / 1977 F100/350 351M/400.
> > Carpenter has repro'd both these fan shrouds, both are listed under these Ford part numbers, both have their specific specs listed. < <
Cross-Country
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
BRASS on the other hand has less conductivity than both copper and aluminum, but was only used for the end tanks for cost savings I'd guess.
Manufacturers switched to aluminum for cost savings. People just assumed it was better.
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Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,255
Likes: 199
From: Phoenix, Az.
I stand corrected. As a Ford partsman for decades I have witnessed cars and trucks that came out with smaller and with less row radiators in Ford vehicles when they swiched to aluminum. So,I, am one of the ones who assumed aluminum transfers heat better.
********************
Cap-A-Radiator
Put A Cap On Your Radiator Problems!!
<TABLE id=content-table><TBODY><TR><TD id=content-table-main vAlign=top align=left><!-- Start content section --><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" name=""><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=top width="100%">What makes the better radiator;<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
fficeffice" ?--><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
Aluminum or Copper?<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
I get asked this question so often that I feel like a broken record telling the pros & cons over and over. I am not a scientist, chemist or engineer but based on my 28 years in the radiator business here is my opinion on which is better; copper or aluminum radiators.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
There is much debate over whether a copper or an aluminum radiator will cool better. There are pros and cons to each material. It has been scientifically proven that copper actually transfers heat better than aluminum. It is easier to repair in most cases than aluminum and until the last couple of years was much less expensive. The drawbacks to a copper radiator are the weight difference (aluminum is much lighter) and the solder joints that hold it together. The solder that secures the tubes to the fins does not transfer heat as quickly as copper and slows down the heat transfer. The presence of solder where the tubes are soldered into the headers is also the main cause of what is known as “solder bloom”. I am sure all of you have looked inside a radiator at some time and observed the white residue growing around the tubes. This growth is the result of chemical reactions from different metals (brass tubes, copper header, lead/tin solder) and lime and other chemicals in the water/antifreeze mixture. In the 1990’s some manufacturers started using a process called “Copubraze” which eliminated the solder between the tubes and the headers. The tubes were brazed instead of soldered which prevented the solder bloom problem and also created a better made core. This process was more costly however and most manufacturers were favoring aluminum anyway due to the weight savings. Copper core manufacturers also started using smaller and thinner tubes to break the coolant down into smaller amounts to further improve cooling. Smaller tubes clogged up much easier especially when the vehicles owner did not adhere to recommended cooling system flushing intervals. They also used thinner material to cut weight and improve heat transfer but the longevity suffered.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Aluminum radiators are welded or “aluminum brazed” and the finished piece is 100% aluminum. This eliminates the dissimilar metals and solder bloom problems that affect copper radiators. Aluminum radiators can also use wider tubes that create more surface contact area from the tubes to the fins and helps dissipate the heat quicker. Most aluminum radiators use 1” wide tubes and some manufacturers like <!--?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" ?--><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:CITY w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Griffin</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY> offer 1.25” and 1.5” tubes as well. Traditional copper radiators usually use ½” tubes so a 4 row copper radiator has slightly less fin contact area than a 2 row aluminum core with 1” tubes when you take into account the loss of contact area at the curved ends of the tubes. Most OEM copper radiators were built with the tubes on 9/16” centers from each other. All aluminum cores are built with the tubes on 7/16” or 3/8” centers creating a denser and more efficient core than a standard copper core. I generally tell customers that a high efficiency (tubes on 7/16” or closer centers) copper four row will cool the same as an aluminum core with two rows of 1” tubes. If more cooling is required from the radiator than either of these designs will provide, than an aluminum core with two rows of 1.25” is the thickest recommended for a street application. Any thicker than that and you may have trouble pulling air through the core at low speeds or when at a light.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Aluminum offers the advantage of about 30% to 40% less weight. To a racer this is a huge advantage over copper. Aluminum can also be polished out to a mirror like finish for those concerned with show appearance. Neither has an advantage when it comes to corrosion. Left unprotected, a copper radiator core will turn green and deteriorate rapidly especially in a damp environment. That is why copper radiators have always been painted, usually black. Aluminum will oxidize if not protected from the elements. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
If your radiator needs to be replaced and you want to retain as much originality as possible then recoring your original copper radiator may be the best choice for you. A copper radiator core can be made more efficient by changing the tube spacing and fin count. As I stated earlier the radiators that were made from the 1950’s to the 1970’s generally used ½” wide tubes placed on 9/16” centers from each other. If you counted the fins you might get as few as 6 or 8 fins per inch (FPI). If the tubes are placed closer together and the fins are packed in tighter a denser core is created that throws off much more heat. A high efficiency core can have tubes on 7/16”, 3/8” or even 5/16” centers and fin counts increased to 12 to 14 FPI. That may not seem like a big deal but the surface area is greatly increased. As an example; a 26” wide radiator core with tubes on 9/16” centers has about 45 tubes from side to side. A high efficiency core of the same width has 57 tubes from side to side. Combined with all the additional fins between the tubes this provides approximately 25% to 30% better cooling than the OEM radiator had. A three row high efficiency core will cool about the same as a regular four row without taking away another 5/8” of fan clearance. Going to a thicker core will cool better but there is one big thing to remember. As the air passes through each row of tubes it is picking up heat along the way. The air cools off each following row of tubes a little less than the previous rows. A four row core is of course better than a two row core but increasing a cores thickness does not necessarily mean it will continue to get more efficient as it gets thicker. As I said earlier a core that is too thick will also impede the airflow at low speeds. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
So which is better, aluminum or copper? My opinion is neither. Each one has advantages over the other in different areas. The decision over which to use in your particular case comes down to what is more important to you. Weight, appearance, originality and cost all need to be considered before you make your decision. From my own experience on my own vehicles I have found that a properly built high efficiency copper radiator will cool the same as a well made aluminum radiator. Like I said at the beginning, I am not a scientist or an engineer but this is my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
<O:P>Cap-A-Radiator</O:P>
<O:P>566 Fulton Street</O:P>
<O:P>Farmingdale, NY 11735</O:P>
<O:P>(516) 293-9026</O:P>
<O:P>Hours of Operation:</O:P>
<O:P>Mon-Fri 8am-5pm</O:P>
<O:P>Alternate Saturdays 8am-1pm
</O:P>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE id=other_footer border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- End content section -->
</TD><TD id=content-table-sub class=accent vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
********************
Cap-A-Radiator
Put A Cap On Your Radiator Problems!!
<TABLE id=content-table><TBODY><TR><TD id=content-table-main vAlign=top align=left><!-- Start content section --><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" name=""><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=top width="100%">
fficeffice" ?--><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>I get asked this question so often that I feel like a broken record telling the pros & cons over and over. I am not a scientist, chemist or engineer but based on my 28 years in the radiator business here is my opinion on which is better; copper or aluminum radiators.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
There is much debate over whether a copper or an aluminum radiator will cool better. There are pros and cons to each material. It has been scientifically proven that copper actually transfers heat better than aluminum. It is easier to repair in most cases than aluminum and until the last couple of years was much less expensive. The drawbacks to a copper radiator are the weight difference (aluminum is much lighter) and the solder joints that hold it together. The solder that secures the tubes to the fins does not transfer heat as quickly as copper and slows down the heat transfer. The presence of solder where the tubes are soldered into the headers is also the main cause of what is known as “solder bloom”. I am sure all of you have looked inside a radiator at some time and observed the white residue growing around the tubes. This growth is the result of chemical reactions from different metals (brass tubes, copper header, lead/tin solder) and lime and other chemicals in the water/antifreeze mixture. In the 1990’s some manufacturers started using a process called “Copubraze” which eliminated the solder between the tubes and the headers. The tubes were brazed instead of soldered which prevented the solder bloom problem and also created a better made core. This process was more costly however and most manufacturers were favoring aluminum anyway due to the weight savings. Copper core manufacturers also started using smaller and thinner tubes to break the coolant down into smaller amounts to further improve cooling. Smaller tubes clogged up much easier especially when the vehicles owner did not adhere to recommended cooling system flushing intervals. They also used thinner material to cut weight and improve heat transfer but the longevity suffered.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Aluminum radiators are welded or “aluminum brazed” and the finished piece is 100% aluminum. This eliminates the dissimilar metals and solder bloom problems that affect copper radiators. Aluminum radiators can also use wider tubes that create more surface contact area from the tubes to the fins and helps dissipate the heat quicker. Most aluminum radiators use 1” wide tubes and some manufacturers like <!--?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
ffice:smarttags" ?--><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:CITY w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Griffin</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY> offer 1.25” and 1.5” tubes as well. Traditional copper radiators usually use ½” tubes so a 4 row copper radiator has slightly less fin contact area than a 2 row aluminum core with 1” tubes when you take into account the loss of contact area at the curved ends of the tubes. Most OEM copper radiators were built with the tubes on 9/16” centers from each other. All aluminum cores are built with the tubes on 7/16” or 3/8” centers creating a denser and more efficient core than a standard copper core. I generally tell customers that a high efficiency (tubes on 7/16” or closer centers) copper four row will cool the same as an aluminum core with two rows of 1” tubes. If more cooling is required from the radiator than either of these designs will provide, than an aluminum core with two rows of 1.25” is the thickest recommended for a street application. Any thicker than that and you may have trouble pulling air through the core at low speeds or when at a light.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P>
Aluminum offers the advantage of about 30% to 40% less weight. To a racer this is a huge advantage over copper. Aluminum can also be polished out to a mirror like finish for those concerned with show appearance. Neither has an advantage when it comes to corrosion. Left unprotected, a copper radiator core will turn green and deteriorate rapidly especially in a damp environment. That is why copper radiators have always been painted, usually black. Aluminum will oxidize if not protected from the elements. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
If your radiator needs to be replaced and you want to retain as much originality as possible then recoring your original copper radiator may be the best choice for you. A copper radiator core can be made more efficient by changing the tube spacing and fin count. As I stated earlier the radiators that were made from the 1950’s to the 1970’s generally used ½” wide tubes placed on 9/16” centers from each other. If you counted the fins you might get as few as 6 or 8 fins per inch (FPI). If the tubes are placed closer together and the fins are packed in tighter a denser core is created that throws off much more heat. A high efficiency core can have tubes on 7/16”, 3/8” or even 5/16” centers and fin counts increased to 12 to 14 FPI. That may not seem like a big deal but the surface area is greatly increased. As an example; a 26” wide radiator core with tubes on 9/16” centers has about 45 tubes from side to side. A high efficiency core of the same width has 57 tubes from side to side. Combined with all the additional fins between the tubes this provides approximately 25% to 30% better cooling than the OEM radiator had. A three row high efficiency core will cool about the same as a regular four row without taking away another 5/8” of fan clearance. Going to a thicker core will cool better but there is one big thing to remember. As the air passes through each row of tubes it is picking up heat along the way. The air cools off each following row of tubes a little less than the previous rows. A four row core is of course better than a two row core but increasing a cores thickness does not necessarily mean it will continue to get more efficient as it gets thicker. As I said earlier a core that is too thick will also impede the airflow at low speeds. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
So which is better, aluminum or copper? My opinion is neither. Each one has advantages over the other in different areas. The decision over which to use in your particular case comes down to what is more important to you. Weight, appearance, originality and cost all need to be considered before you make your decision. From my own experience on my own vehicles I have found that a properly built high efficiency copper radiator will cool the same as a well made aluminum radiator. Like I said at the beginning, I am not a scientist or an engineer but this is my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
<O:P>566 Fulton Street</O:P>
<O:P>Farmingdale, NY 11735</O:P>
<O:P>(516) 293-9026</O:P>
<O:P>Hours of Operation:</O:P>
<O:P>Mon-Fri 8am-5pm</O:P>
<O:P>Alternate Saturdays 8am-1pm
</O:P>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE id=other_footer border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- End content section -->
</TD><TD id=content-table-sub class=accent vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Last edited by JEFFFAFA; Oct 17, 2013 at 10:43 AM. Reason: cleaned up a bit
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 891
Likes: 0
From: Mayfield, KY
I went to pick up radiator from O "Really?" and it was not as advertised. Had plastic tanks and aluminum core. Plus the dang flange was on the front and it said rear on the website! At least the manager tried to make it right but I just got a refund. I had previously checked on one from rad shop in KY and will be buying that one Monday. Yes, they are a little pricier, but when I need it serviced I know they will stand behind it.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
I picked up a radiator and thought I was doing good. $20 and then had it tested and cleaned another $20. My truck has a 300 I6 so I figured it was fine. NOPE, opening for the core support too big. I had a mental lapse when picking up the radiator, it was a 360 truck at one point so I need a bigger radiator. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!
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