Working with the Machine Shop

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Jul 2, 2012 | 01:53 PM

Finger__Rachet

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, Tx

Working with the Machine Shop

I’m rebuilding my 460 from my 1988 F250 (manual 4 spd w/OD, 4.10, extended cab, 4x2). I started a thread on this on the 1987-1996 F150 and Larger F Series forum, here’s the link if you are interested. Since this is mainly about rebuilding the 460, I thought I should post these questions here.

I’m very new to this. This is my first engine to try to rebuild by myself. I plan to take the cylinder block, crankshaft, rods, pistons, cam shaft and cylinder heads to a machine shop. Have them prepare the block and rebuild the heads so that I can assemble the short block and long block. I’ve never stepped foot in a machine shop and that means I’ve got questions. I want to order the right services and parts but I don’t want to insult these guys. So what I services and parts should I request when I show up with my stuff? I plan to fully dissemble the engine block (crankshaft, pistons, rods, bearings, etc removed). How should I prepare the engine parts before I arrive?

I’ve done some research, searched the web and searched this forum. I thought since I didn’t find a thread that seemed to cover just the machine shop ordering process that I’d start this one with a list of what I found on the internet and ask you guys to chime in and correct or add to what I’ve listed below.

So here is a cut/paste of thoughts that I found on this topic across the WWW. I inserted questions where I have them in blue.

Quote:

The first thing the shop will do is write up a work order and make a detailed list of everything on your engine, right down to the nuts, bolts, and washers. That's how you know you'll get everything back.

Take the cylinder block, crankshaft, rods and pistons and cylinder heads to the machine shop. (How should I prepare these beforehand?)

They will measure all critical dimensions with precise measuring instruments such as dial-bore gauges and micrometers and check for cracks by Magnafluxing. This information will determine if your engine just needs "rings, bearings and a valve job" or a more intensive rebuild that includes overboring the cylinders for new pistons and turning down the crankshaft. (So it sounds like I’m asking them to check everything to see if it can be rebuilt and then they will outline what they recommend, have I got that straight?)

Make sure your rebuilder uses a magnafluxing process to identify any cracks in your engine parts - including the block, heads, crank, rods, cam, and so on. The crank should also be checked to make sure it's still straight - especially with high-power engines, cranks can bend over time! Your block should be cleaned, magnafluxed, all bolt holes tapped clean, plus all head bolt and main bolt-holes need to be bottom tapped. (Do I have to specify these services, or is it assumed?)

A quality engine rebuilder should always use standard machine shop work. They should align-bore the crankshaft passage and bearing surfaces to make sure that the crank sits straight and doesn't bind. The shop should bore the cylinder walls and decide which size pistons to use after the bores are completely clean and smooth. If you need to overbore and hone your engine, make sure the machinist has the pistons for your engine, before he starts his machine work. (Do I have to specify these services, or is it assumed?)

New pistons should always be measured, and the block re-honed to fit the pistons before assembly. Pistons and connecting rods should be machined to identical weight plus or minus half a gram.

A good shop will regrind the crank and select new bearings based on the post-grind measurement of the crank journals. The connecting rods are also reconditioned and resized in a quality rebuild - with new wrist pins installed.

Ensure that the engine preparation includes the deck surface. Always make sure there are
no dings, scratches, excessive water pitting in the water jackets, etc. (Is something I need so specify or is this standard?)

Recommend assembling the short block, measuring all four corners, then square cutting the block so the pistons are .005 to .010 below the deck surface of your block for a good gasket seal. Do not sand the deck if you get it resurfaced at the machine shop. (Do you guys recommend this?)

Both heads should receive all new valves, valve seats, and new bronze valve guides. Then when the head is assembled, the valve seats should be cut to match the new valves and assembled with new valve springs and shimmed for proper spring pressure.

The crankshaft, flywheel, and harmonic balancer should be spin-balanced before being installed.

There are several ways to purchase the parts needed for the rebuild. Most engine machine shops can order the parts for you, or you can probably save some money by purchasing an engine rebuild "kit" through mail order. If this is your first rebuild, it's probably better to have the machine shop order what is needed. (Seems like good advice to me to let the machine shop provide the parts. What parts I should I be asking for on this? I know that kits can vary. I’d like a new timing chain, water pump and oil pump along with what I think are standard parts; pistons, connecting rods, bearings, plugs, valve springs, gaskets, seals, etc, should I order those separately or with the machine shop?)

The stock main and head bolts especially if they have been retorqued a few times become stretched. If your bolts will not accept the correct torque replace them with OEM bolts if you can find them. (Do you guys recommend this? I was surprised at how easy some of my bolts came out.)

I recommend you purchase a block brush cleaning kit so you can clean every bolt hole, oil galley crevice, cylinder bore, etc., before final block assembly. Use a clean solvent first then Simple Green or Castrol Super Clean, use hot water with any soapy cleaning agent, rinse with clean hot water and blow air dry. Do not use rags or towels, because they will leave lint behind that can stick the bypass check valve in your oil pump or oil filter housing adapter. (What is a clean solvent, is it mineral spirits?)

End of copy of Internet places.

Hope this isn't too long. Thanks for the advice!

Jul 2, 2012 | 06:19 PM

Ken(Ark)

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First thing we and the machine shop want to know is what is your budget and what is your goal ?

If money is not a problem and you are wanting to get a motor that will last a long time you can bet it will be bored with new pistons plus the works . $2500 + ???

On a budget it may be possible to hone it , rering it , polish the crank , grind the old valves , and get it back on the road . $400 ???

Jul 2, 2012 | 10:49 PM

Finger__Rachet

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, Tx

My goal is to rebuild a little better than original in terms of parts, with little modifications to specs. Might add headers and have the mad porter machine my intake. Budget wise I can afford more but don't want to get into street racer territory in terms of cost. Maybe $1500 to $2000 for machine work including the kit, water pump and oil pump?

Jul 3, 2012 | 08:42 AM

Ken(Ark)

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A couple of things here ,

You know the history on the motor , is it worn out , overheating , smoking , etc ? This would give you indications on things to look closer at or at least help identify areas that are likely to need some money spent on .

The machine shop may be straight up or try to steer you into spending as much money as they think they can squeeze out of you . Make sure you get a price before any work is done , but a crooked shop will do the work anyway and hold your parts until they are paid for .

We have one crooked shop here that will take your good heads and tell you they are cracked then show you an old set of cracked heads . Since both sets were hot tanked you cant visually id your heads or block , unless you stamp your own . Most legit shops make their money honestly but have to charge a little more .

Inspect your motor as you pull it apart . I am assuming it is a good running motor that is just tired ? Take lots of pics so you will have a reference later .

I bet just about any shop would be glad to line hone your block for $150? but on a daily driver it probably is not out of specs . New valves ? usually the old ones can be recut .

Magnifluxing , I don't on a motor that I new was running good unless they are sbc vortec heads , this is where tear down inspection is helpful . Decking the block or milling the heads - a straight edge ($25) and feeler gauges will tell you if that needs done . If you plan on rebuilding motors again this is a nice inexpensive tool but maybe too much for a one time shot .

Connecting rods - This is a tough one for a one time engine builder , Personally I would buy a cheap dial bore gauge to check the piston bore and rods because most machine shops will rework the rods for $100 because they know its right when it leaves their shop and they can't afford to spend about the same time to check them for free , its a business thing .

This really is the tough part , trying to get the best bang for the buck . You don't want to spend money if you don't have to but saving a few dollars could cost you in the long run .

Building one motor probably means you need to pay the machine shop to do it all , thats just a lot of money . In the long run you could probably get a good crate motor cheaper .

I am still half asleep and rambling on but maybe you can pick up a few things , hopefully someone else has some info too .

Last thing , do your homework , ask questions , remember free advice ( especially mine , he he ) is not always right so weigh the info and make an educated guess . Balance your upgrades , a hugh cam or carb will hurt more than help .

Jul 3, 2012 | 02:00 PM

Finger__Rachet

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, Tx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken(Ark)

A couple of things here ,

You know the history on the motor , is it worn out , overheating , smoking , etc ? This would give you indications on things to look closer at or at least help identify areas that are likely to need some money spent on. I actually bought it a month ago with the purpose of doing a rebuild mainly as a start of a hobby for me. It was running. I didn't see any smoke in the exhaust, no coolant in the oil and no oil in the coolant. I ran the EEC IV codes, both KOEO and KOER, and it only showed that the EGR valve isn't opening (33) and it is running lean (41). It wasn't overheating all at and the oil pressure was good.

The machine shop may be straight up or try to steer you into spending as much money as they think they can squeeze out of you . Make sure you get a price before any work is done , but a crooked shop will do the work anyway and hold your parts until they are paid for. I'm planning to go to a local shop that the local mechanics and part store guys recommend. It's a small community so I'm pretty sure if he was bad they wouldn't recommend him. But I'll get a price up front. Should I just ask him to check out my block and heads and give me a recommendation?

We have one crooked shop here that will take your good heads and tell you they are cracked then show you an old set of cracked heads . Since both sets were hot tanked you cant visually id your heads or block , unless you stamp your own . Most legit shops make their money honestly but have to charge a little more .

Inspect your motor as you pull it apart . I am assuming it is a good running motor that is just tired ? Take lots of pics so you will have a reference later . Good advice. I've been taking lots of photos. I'll probably post the photos of the block, pistons, crankshaft and cam shaft on here and see what the FTE crowd can diagnosis.

I bet just about any shop would be glad to line hone your block for $150? but on a daily driver it probably is not out of specs . New valves ? usually the old ones can be recut . Okay.

Magnifluxing , I don't on a motor that I new was running good unless they are sbc vortec heads , this is where tear down inspection is helpful . Decking the block or milling the heads - a straight edge ($25) and feeler gauges will tell you if that needs done . If you plan on rebuilding motors again this is a nice inexpensive tool but maybe too much for a one time shot . If this goes well then I think I'll be doing more of these. I've got a carpenter's square, I'm assuming that you are talking about something else.

Connecting rods - This is a tough one for a one time engine builder , Personally I would buy a cheap dial bore gauge to check the piston bore and rods because most machine shops will rework the rods for $100 because they know its right when it leaves their shop and they can't afford to spend about the same time to check them for free , its a business thing . $100 doesn't seem like too much to be right.

This really is the tough part , trying to get the best bang for the buck . You don't want to spend money if you don't have to but saving a few dollars could cost you in the long run. I'd rather spend and buy quality than have it break down early.

Building one motor probably means you need to pay the machine shop to do it all , thats just a lot of money . In the long run you could probably get a good crate motor cheaper . If I was trying to save money then I'd do that. This isn't my daily driver, it's a hobby truck for me to learn and do. Keeps me home at night.

I am still half asleep and rambling on but maybe you can pick up a few things , hopefully someone else has some info too .

Last thing , do your homework , ask questions , remember free advice ( especially mine , he he ) is not always right so weigh the info and make an educated guess . Balance your upgrades , a hugh cam or carb will hurt more than help .Will do. Good advice. Thank you!

I got this from a guy who does 460 port work in Tacoma from the 460engine site. This is his recommendation for a mild build of a 460 with EFI.

Quote:

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9; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->In order of importance
1. Headers and free breathing exhaust

2. Low restriction air intake

3. 180 degree t stat.

4. Computer compatable cam change. We use the 207/213 voodoo ground on a 113 lobe sep. This will pass Ca emissions. Factory double roller timing set is not retarded.

5. Port factory intake which will increase flow significantly

6. Budget ported cylinder heads with 2.11" intakes and std exhaust as well as better valve springs and topping the guides. The EFI castings have good exhaust ports and somewhat limited intakes especially the E7TE castings.

7. Deck heads .030" to get static c/r up to 9 to 1 with the stock replacement efi pistons.

8. Adjustable fuel pressure regulator to allow richer WOT operation.

9. piggy back chip for the ecm for additional power via more agressive timing tables and greater injector pulse width. (optional)

I was thinking of doing 1, 2, 3 and 5 and maybe 6 & 7. I'm kinda shying away from changing the cam and all that goes with that.

Thanks for your response.

Dec 16, 2012 | 03:33 AM

brandon k

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Heres what i just got done, and it is ready to assemble. I would of saved alot of money had my heads not been garbage to start with and a toast crank. But without the heads and cam, and crank core 4 rods it would probably run:
110$ grind crank
50$ recondition rods
250$ rebore, hone, tank, cam bearings (removal and install)
not sure how much rebuild kits are going for but last time i looked around 350-500 depending on options.
My bill is kinda confusing to be honest. But everything cost me 1800. And looking back i could of saved more money if i had patients but im trying to get this beast on the road asap! <a href="http://s1336.beta.photobucket.com/user/brandonkak/media/BILL_zps5d458204.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o647/brandonkak/BILL_zps5d458204.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

Dec 17, 2012 | 10:31 AM

Finger__Rachet

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, Tx

I just got the bottom end back from Spreen Racing and Machine Shop in Boerne, Tx. I'm pleased with the job. I'm supposed to get my heads back this week. I'm pretty sure that my cost is going to be higher than yours but I went with the performance upgrade as spec'd above.