Hey all,

Well I went back to the machine shop today to drop off my flywheel so it can get resurfaced.

The shop owner was there this time and we were able to get down to the nit-n-gritty on my rebuild.

Long story short, its costing me more and more as I go BUT I feel I'm doing it the right way, the first time. Hopefully I'm not getting raped

The other snafu is that the block is cracked. The water jacket on the left side on the very back of the block. It's a hair line crack that is about a 1/2" long. The machinest said this is a some-what common stress crack in FE's. He felt comfortable in fixing it and said he could drill and stitch it and it should be fine ($65). I told him if he though that would be a good, permenant repair to go for it since he's got to warranty his work. What do you guys think?

I have decided to have the block lined honed due to the pattern my old bearings had. Some were wore more in spots, and not even. The machinest said after it's line honed the crank will spin smooth as butter. Though it's not necessary, will make the engine last longer.

We also decided to do a piston change and zero deck the block. I was originally going to go with the Silv-o-lite 1130's but he recommended an upgrade to the KB150's since they are the price I thought I was going to pay for the 1130's ($250). He recommended them for a couple reasons, 1 was detonation. This design is supposedly more efficient and less likely to cause detonation (which has been more of a problem with the cast pistons). Second, with these we can zero deck the block and get the actual 9:1 compression (assuming the heads are with-in specs) in all the holes. He said with-out zeroing the block and running the cast pistons not only would the compression vary between cylinders, it would be less compression overall. He said this piston, with it's design should net me some more HP also. This might have been a bunch of crap, but it seems logical with my novice experience with engines.

Is that all needed? Not really, and he said it's not. For a general purpose engine (which mine will be) it's a toss up on wether to do that or not. He just said it will make a better, more reliable and a little more powerful engine.

I also had already purchased ARP rod bolts, so he will install those and cut and re-hone the rods.

He said these pistons/rods require the rod pins to be pressed in, is this true?

He said he's also going to install a tube/pin in the oil galleries that feed the heads, supposedly these are prone to stress crack. Said that won't cost anything. I think I remember reading about that here.

Anyway, with rebuilding the heads, new valves, seats, guides, resurfacing the flywheel, installing expansion plugs, removing some broken exhaust bolts, grinding/polishing the crank, hanging/resizing pistons, install cam bearings, and other misc. the total is going to be $1563.82. for parts and labor. Labor alone is $1131.00

I can list all the details and prices if anyone wants the run down.

Anywho, if you've spent the time to read all that, let me know what you think.

Jordan

 

FE's use floating pins. There has never been one FE produced, ever, that used pressed pins. This has me concerned.

The KB150 pistons have the right compression height, but have a humongus dish. I would bite the bullet and use TRW L2291's.

More later.

 

Are they assembling that sucker for you also...? If not, thats WAY too much for just machine work alone!!
I am also not familiar with FE blocks being prone to stress cracks, that would be a new one on me, but if I am wrong, one of the gurus will correct me.
I do agree with Kurt on the pistons too... There is enough descrepancy here that would make me nervous with this whole process......

 

They won't be assembling it. I was wondering about the piston thing too, he might have been thinking about a different engine. I know the shop is very competent, they do the machine work for the construction company I used to work for, and for a deisel mechanic friend of mine. None have had a problem with quality of work.

I'm assuming the pistons have the large dish is so they can be zero decked, then it used the dish for valve relieve. If it didn't have a dish, and just valve reliefs it would give way too much compression. He said they have good results with them because that design increases the velocity of the chamber with the way it compresses and forces the air out of the cylinder. ???

I don't want to buck up for the forged pistons, I'd go back to cast before paying any more.

I'll get the detail description up on the break down of machine costs. Post back in a little while......

 

*Block*
Clean/Magnaflux $60
Regrind Crank $85
Bore Cylinders $110
Torque plate hone - cylinders $110
Align Hone - crank $100
Install cam brgs $50
Square Deck V $125
Install expansion plugs $15
Remove broken bolts $30
Install heli-coil $15
Repair crack in block $65

*Rods/Pistons*
Resize connecting rods $60
Rebush connecting rods and fit $60
Hang pistons and align $36

*Heads*
Clean/Magnaflux heads $60
Valve job, 2 heads $100
Install valve guide inserts $60
Install valve seat inserts $60
Resurface heads $40

*Flywheel*
Resurface $35


*Parts*
Intake Valves $44.80
Exhaust Valves $49.92
Seat Valve $29.92
Valve Guide Insert $24
Plug, Locks, Shim $10
Piston Kit $250
Cam Bearings $24.98

There it all is. They charge $65 per hour for labor.

Jordan

 

This is a case where a little preparation work would have saved you big $$$ at the machine shop. They are in business to make money. If you walk in with an engine and dont know exactly what you need... well, be prepared to open your wallet.

I went through what is needed and not in your first thread.

On the piston issue, having them at zero deck IS very desirable. What it does, is allow for good quench. Basically the piston comes close enough to the head at TDC that the gasses squirt out creating turbulence in the chamber, causing a faster burn, and also reducing the tendancy to ping. However, there is some forgiveness here. It doesn't need to be EXACTLY zero deck to get this effect. IMO as long as its within .015" it's fine. With the stock deck height and those pistons you'll have .012" deck clearance.

Next, we're talking 9:1 compression. I'm running 10:1 in my 390 on 89 octane pump gas without problems. Short story is you could use a bit more compression. What cam were you going to be running again?

 

The 901 cam. I know a lot of what is quoted isn't necessary (decking the block and line honing the crank = $225), but it doesn't increase the cost that much. I wanted them to measure how far out of wack the deck is, but he said the only way to measure that accurately is to set it up on the machine that mills it, by then half your labor is already into doing it. He said since the motor was in good shape before hand, it's not necessary to do it, but would recommend it for better performance. If, best case scenerio it gained me 15-20 hp it would be near worth it for that much money. If it gained me like 2 hp then it would be pointless. He didn't tell me how much power would be gained, I'm just guessing.

 

Oh yeah, I also called an older mechanic friend tonight that has a lot of experiences in Fords and he said he's had a few of these FE's crack in that same spot. He used a different method than I've heard of to fix it, grooving it out and filling with epoxy. It wasn't JB weld, but something along those lines. He said as long as it's done right he never had a problem. Infact one of this old line trucks was fixed like that many years ago and it's still problem free.

Mine will be fixed by the pinning method, which is supposed to be best.

 

The prices listed for the machine work are not bad and average as I see them. Labor the going rate also. I don't see any mention of balancing the rotating assy though. Are you having this done also?? G.

 

Nope, no balancing. This engine "might" see 4500 rpms on occasion when screwing around but doubtful. I think the stock heads give out around there anyway. It will probably live in the 2500-3000 RPM range (towing and what not).

Jordan

 

Well crapola. The machinest called, said where the crack is there isn't enough meat in the block to pin it. So the block is toast.

Now this project is going to be extended yet again. The machinest has one block that would clean up at .060 but I told him I wasn't interested in running .060 over unless the block was sonic tested for thickness. He's got one other he's going to have taken apart to see if it's useable. He would charge $200 for a core, which is pretty fair.

I've got a couple leads, one on a '69 ford station wagon with supposedly a good running 390 and possibly another rebuilt one (that I would only pay core price for since I would want to rebuild it anyway).

To bad I've already bought all the parts to build this thing (well, a lot of them). I've got a rebuildable 429, but didn't want to bother with finding a bell housing and the conversion stuff, but it's not sounding so bad at this point.

Oh well, all in the fun. At least they found the crack.

Jordan

 

i would pull one at a junk yard

 

Agreed. A junkyard block may be just the ticket. 360's seem to be as common as dirt, around here anyway, and that's where I'd begin the search.

FWIW - I got a 360 for spare parts for my 390 build at the local junkyard for $35. The block is in good condition and usable. I found it on the ground on the side of one of the paths.

 

Thanks, I'll call around tomorrow and see if anyone has one for a reasonable price.