try grinding a start point into it?
once you are in it should cut like butter with a carbide bit.

how big are the holes?
don't forget to peck that thing.
you did say your a machinist didn't you?

 

I am, and your right on the money...

Im going to turn a collar to clamp onto the rotor journal and machine 8 flats to index the rotor on the mill (I dont have a rotary table at home yet, or a dividing head for that matter, gotta make due) And turn a 60* angle on it to start the drill. Also going to make a plug for the backside (Inside of the rotor) so the drill doesnt break when it goes through. Then Im going to use a carbide 3/32 drill and drill 6 new ports in the rotor for a total of 8 fill ports, Im hoping that the collar will eliminate the issues of having an interference cut where the hardened material starts, and the drill will plunge right through the case and into the softer material below. Thats the plan anyway, ill try it out on a broken rotor first. Worst case, Ill have to build some drill bushings with the corresponding angle built in...

As far as grinding first, that was a path I was considering earlier but, I think it would be hard to get an accurate grind, that also removes enough material to make it feasible to drill. Remeber, the rotor surface has to stay perfect, no grinding slip ups... I think the collar method will work decently enough, its just not practical for production purposes...

Also, Im thinking for the plunging chamber, just heading down to lowes and getting a masonry bit (Carbide tipped), and chamfering the plunger bore right to the diameter im going to drill it, that way the case is removed, and I should be able to bore the plunging chamber with just HHS, ream it, and lap it...Then I can take the dimension and machine new plungers from something VERY hard.

Im sure Im going to have to run additive in every tank with this pump, but it WILL be worth it ...

 

Dude that is crazy stuff guys. I really give it to you for thinkin outside the box yet again Justin...

 

carbide center drill anyone?
sounds like a good idea to use a setup part.

have you made a new shaft yet or are you just going to modify the old one?

 

For this pump, Im going to use this rotor (after I modify it) and head, that way I can see what it does before I go all out and machine a new rotor and barrel. The input shaft will be a totally new piece of metal.

 

So after talking to a couple of guys at the local tooling supplier, showing them what I had going, we all thought it would be a good idea to check with an EDM shop to see what they could do, that way I wouldnt break a couple hundred dollars in carbide bits making this thing happen. So It just so happens that the most capable EDM shop in the state if not the NW is literally a couple miles down the road, so I stopped by and talked with them. Basically they said what I wanted to do was a cakewalk, and totally within their capabilties. So they are going to bore my plunging chamber, and add 6 fill holes to the rotor. Best part about it, is it will probably cost less than the tooling to build one rotor, not to mention avoiding all the headaches of machining it...

I decided after all was said and done, and I ran some more calculations, to settle on .400" plungers, instead of the .470's I was thinking. The reasoning is that there is just not enough length to stabilize the girth with the bigger plunger, and you can only have so much length (Yes, I just did type all that )... Basically you can only go so far in diameter before the plunger starts to "rock" in the bore, causing it to eventually lock up, and even before that, its just hard on both the bore and plunger. So I went with a conservative .400" instead. I still should be able to get a solid 120cc out of it, if not some more.

Should be done in a couple of weeks.

 

Sounds bitchin dude. Stock is .280 or .310?

 

N/A plungers are .290" and the Turbo plungers are .310"...

 

it's always easier to have someone else do it :P

how much is this "upgrade" costing so far?

 

Dude that is awesome keep up the good work! What are the size of the plungers on the Dps Turbo cal pump? Or did Ken not modify the plugers? And X2 on Turltmann14's question?

 

The Turbo cal plungers are stock turbo size @ .310", In fact, the only physical modification to parts on my turbo cal was the cam ring, Ken smooths the profile of the cam ring to help out the action. Other than that, Im sure the rest of the fuel delivery is made up through transfer pump/timing curve tuning, as there just really isnt any "magic" to work on these pumps other than that.

As far as cost, so far all I am into this pump build is $50 worth of carbide drills that I havent even used, and are sitting on my desk. The Turbo cal was already blown on my bench, the N/A pump was a spare I bought from Dirtydiesel with an engine. For the EDM work, I was quoted $225, but wont know the total damage until I pick it up. Ill still have to turn some new plungers, but material cost wont be high on those. I was thinking for this first pump, of just using the stock input shaft, and see if it will hold up, my Turbo cal failure was obviously caused foreign debris/internal debris (Water anybody?), and it locked up. Im not playing with the plunger stroke too much other than maxxing out its stock range under the leaf spring, so I shouldnt have any problem with binding the rollers on the cam ring or hydrolocking, provided the rollers want to take the extra stress of the extra fuel delivery. NMB2's DB4 has the stock shaft, and delivers 150cc's, so the stock shaft should be sufficient provided I dont give it a reason divide itself...

The next iteration of the pump will have a custom rotor, barrel, bigger galleries, 4 big plungers, custom cam ring, and flow lots more fuel... And thats just the hydraulic head, it will need a new shaft, and some way to prevent the housing from becoming a few different pieces...

 

I didnt know that NA - turbo pumps were actually all that different. So they do in fact move more fuel. To say the least im interested in the big one youre talkin about... but that will come around when it comes around.

Not to sound like a moron... but what would it take to machine a new housing? Basically, going that far you could more or less build it from the ground up to do whatever you want it to. Youre already machining a new rotor and barrel, converting to 4 plunger, shaft.. etc etc. Seems it might be the best way to get rid of all the problems, and make an overall bigger better unit. Like ive no doubt said before im oblivious to these things so im going off of what i read and being inventive, but if you can go from 2 to 4, why not 4 to 6, or more what do i know. But, i can here NMB2 already... if youre going that far... it would likely be easier to change the pump altogether... at that point only thing left to deal with is bolting the pump to the engine...

IDK.. maybe some food for thought, or more likely a fools iteration of the impossible.

 

You mentioned about 120cc from this pump. You think you can get 150cc from the next one with four plungers? Also if you can make these reliably, do you plan on selling them too?

 

There is a lot of truth to that, and really, aside from my own personal goals with the DB2, my objective is to do this cheaper than it would be to convert to a different pump (Or different engine for that matter), and partially the reason Im doing this with a DB2. There is millions of them out there, and if we can get the fuel delivery with a 2 plunger pump, than we dont need the extra cost of a 4 plunger one (For most at least)... With that being said, I am fully aware of past attempts and successes, and that there is a decent possibility of this thing just grenading... However, im a stubborn *******, and sometimes, in situations like this, thats a good thing...

So... As I have told NMB2 over the phone... If I convert pumps on this engine, its not going to be a P-pump... Thats been done... It'll be a Cat pump... If Im going to go P-pump its going to be strapped on the side of a 5.9 dodge conversion... IMO, there is no point to P-pump an IDI, there are better platforms for a P-pump... I guess Im not that hardcore IDI... With that being said, Im all about seeing what this thing will do with a stockish style pump setup... Lets see how many parts we can break!

 

I get what you are saying. IMO a P-pump can put a lil too much fuel for what we need when it is maxed. And even if you keep it at moderate levels and put it on, there it is still quite a bit of adaptation needed as far as adjusting the intake and adapting the gears. So I do see the method to your madness. Plus if it can be done cheap and reliably, why not?