Solving an overheat problem
#46
08-24-2009, 09:40 PM
sam
#47
08-24-2009, 09:42 PM
One more thing I thought about..during your testing,pay particular attention to the ' autotrans cooler' portion/area of the radiator for rising temps.Again ,you probably won't see a temp rise at idle in the driveway..but when you go for a slow cruise and your temp starts rising..point the tool at the cooler and see if 'that' temp has climbed too much..40 deg difference? at least at that point you have 'isolated' the problem to the trans fluid. Also the trans cooler lines should be pretty toastie at that point....and from the get-go,the return should be just a little cooler...if your cooler is working.Alot of radiator coolers are not much more than a tube with fins inside the lower tank ,in a 'stock' vehicle...this helps,but in the 'heavy-duty'enviroment, most will agree that removing the cooler from a 180-200 deg liquid saturated enviroment ,redesigning( more fins/tubes) and sticking it in the airstream works better,some have added 'scoops' and/or a small fan...just more ideas....I can hear the gears turning ...
I am leaning more & more to external cooler..
Sam
#48
08-24-2009, 09:43 PM
I have a 3000 stall convertor on my trans c-6 I went with the cooler fan combo. My trans builder told me that my trans will heat up quickly and it does. I can run my engine for around ten minutes and my trans temp is already at 130*, thats sitting in my drive way. I'am using a Hayden Model 526 Rapid cool, and a Hayden temp gauge,these 2 items were money well spent.
Sam
#49
08-25-2009, 02:35 AM
Post Fiend
Another stupid question....Are you sure your instrumentation is working correctly - heat sensing units for your fans, and temp gauge sending unit. How is the temp gauge sensing unit mounted - deep into the coolant or somewhat out of the engine? Are they still clean (no loose gasket cement stuck to it, etc.) IOW is the gauge lying to you?????
Just thinking out loud!
Just thinking out loud!
#50
08-25-2009, 07:12 AM
Another stupid question....Are you sure your instrumentation is working correctly - heat sensing units for your fans, and temp gauge sending unit. How is the temp gauge sensing unit mounted - deep into the coolant or somewhat out of the engine? Are they still clean (no loose gasket cement stuck to it, etc.) IOW is the gauge lying to you?????
Just thinking out loud!
Just thinking out loud!
Sam
#51
08-25-2009, 09:35 AM
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Sam,
What is the height and width of the radiator core? Looking at the photos, it looks like you have plenty of surface area. Also, did the rad shop tell you what type of core they installed?
As some others have said, the trans cooler is trying to cool hot fluid with hot water. If you look at most heavy equipment, every liquid and gas has a radiator. Coolant, trans oil, hydraulic oil, air for super-charger/turbo (Charge air cooler.). The only reason oil and trans coolers are built into radiators is to save $$$$$.
What is the height and width of the radiator core? Looking at the photos, it looks like you have plenty of surface area. Also, did the rad shop tell you what type of core they installed?
As some others have said, the trans cooler is trying to cool hot fluid with hot water. If you look at most heavy equipment, every liquid and gas has a radiator. Coolant, trans oil, hydraulic oil, air for super-charger/turbo (Charge air cooler.). The only reason oil and trans coolers are built into radiators is to save $$$$$.
#52
08-25-2009, 09:57 AM
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how tough would it be to pull the electric fans/shroud and see what happens with a mechanical flex fan (although I realize there may not be enough space)
I am running a .040 over 429/c6 combo with a stock replacement 67-78 big block ford pickup radiator (3 core, downflow) and a 190 degree t-stat with a 17 inch mechanical (no clutch) fan, with no issues yet
I am running a .040 over 429/c6 combo with a stock replacement 67-78 big block ford pickup radiator (3 core, downflow) and a 190 degree t-stat with a 17 inch mechanical (no clutch) fan, with no issues yet
#53
08-25-2009, 10:02 AM
Sam,
What is the height and width of the radiator core? Looking at the photos, it looks like you have plenty of surface area. Also, did the rad shop tell you what type of core they installed?
As some others have said, the trans cooler is trying to cool hot fluid with hot water. If you look at most heavy equipment, every liquid and gas has a radiator. Coolant, trans oil, hydraulic oil, air for super-charger/turbo (Charge air cooler.). The only reason oil and trans coolers are built into radiators is to save $$$$$.
What is the height and width of the radiator core? Looking at the photos, it looks like you have plenty of surface area. Also, did the rad shop tell you what type of core they installed?
As some others have said, the trans cooler is trying to cool hot fluid with hot water. If you look at most heavy equipment, every liquid and gas has a radiator. Coolant, trans oil, hydraulic oil, air for super-charger/turbo (Charge air cooler.). The only reason oil and trans coolers are built into radiators is to save $$$$$.
this is a custom built rad to fit this exact space.
I had them put the tranny cooler in on purpose, hoping to save space, and not considering any negative affects (as the production cars do this all the time).
hoping to get time later today to do some temp testing.
Sam
#54
08-25-2009, 10:03 AM
how tough would it be to pull the electric fans/shroud and see what happens with a mechanical flex fan (although I realize there may not be enough space)
I am running a .040 over 429/c6 combo with a stock replacement 67-78 big block ford pickup radiator (3 core, downflow) and a 190 degree t-stat with a 17 inch mechanical (no clutch) fan, with no issues yet
I am running a .040 over 429/c6 combo with a stock replacement 67-78 big block ford pickup radiator (3 core, downflow) and a 190 degree t-stat with a 17 inch mechanical (no clutch) fan, with no issues yet
sam
#55
08-25-2009, 12:27 PM
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the core is 19 tall by 25 wide. what do you mean by 'type'? is a 6 row copper core.
this is a custom built rad to fit this exact space.
I had them put the tranny cooler in on purpose, hoping to save space, and not considering any negative affects (as the production cars do this all the time).
hoping to get time later today to do some temp testing.
Sam
this is a custom built rad to fit this exact space.
I had them put the tranny cooler in on purpose, hoping to save space, and not considering any negative affects (as the production cars do this all the time).
hoping to get time later today to do some temp testing.
Sam
Again, the cooler in the radiator is a money-saving thing for the car makers.
#56
08-25-2009, 07:47 PM
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I was told the tranny fluid was run thru the radiator to bring the tranny fluid up to temp (about 170-175) faster in cold weather areas. Cold fluid shortens the life of the tranny. Also temp of every 20 degrees above 175 will shorten the ATF fluid life to half life. example 100,000 to 50,000 miles for 195 degrees. Also there is a tranny to radiator input and return lines. Input over return if installed over each other. Not to bypass the radiator when adding remote tranny cooler unless you live/operate in only hot areas of the country.
There is a fellow named Lynn Schoonover in Riverside, Ca that has a 56 f-1 with a 428 cobra and a C-6 using a Griffin radiator, a 16 inch fan and a deep tranny pan having extra fluid. Don't know if he is FTE or not. Maybe he may have suggestions.
I don't know about the overflow tank but does it vent at the top when the radiator expells fluid and does it hold enought fluid so when it sucks fluid it doesn't run out of fluid and sucks air. chuck
There is a fellow named Lynn Schoonover in Riverside, Ca that has a 56 f-1 with a 428 cobra and a C-6 using a Griffin radiator, a 16 inch fan and a deep tranny pan having extra fluid. Don't know if he is FTE or not. Maybe he may have suggestions.
I don't know about the overflow tank but does it vent at the top when the radiator expells fluid and does it hold enought fluid so when it sucks fluid it doesn't run out of fluid and sucks air. chuck
#57
08-25-2009, 07:54 PM
well, first pass with the laser temp gauge yields some interesting, but puzzling data.
(+/- 5 degrees)
this is all idling, over 15 minutes. using the 7lb rad cap. 50/50 coolant mix.
the fan comes on when the manifold temp hits 160. the same time as the tstat opens.
the output of the rad is approx 25-30 degrees lower than the input(so the fans are working), but the manifold temp continues to rise. at 180 rad input, the output is about 155. at 205 input, the output is 177. but the temp continues to rise.
the tranny pan temp gets to 165 very quickly. I didn't find a clear way to get the lower rad tank temp, altho I can get the rad output temp easily.
I have not been able to get the larger carb jets. I see that the new carb has #70, and on the dyno run we had #72 which produced a 12.5:1 air/fuel ratio.
or the external tranny cooler.
hopefully will be able to get both tomorrow. Only one shop in north austin has the jets. its is now almost 40 miles away.
Sam
(+/- 5 degrees)
this is all idling, over 15 minutes. using the 7lb rad cap. 50/50 coolant mix.
the fan comes on when the manifold temp hits 160. the same time as the tstat opens.
the output of the rad is approx 25-30 degrees lower than the input(so the fans are working), but the manifold temp continues to rise. at 180 rad input, the output is about 155. at 205 input, the output is 177. but the temp continues to rise.
the tranny pan temp gets to 165 very quickly. I didn't find a clear way to get the lower rad tank temp, altho I can get the rad output temp easily.
I have not been able to get the larger carb jets. I see that the new carb has #70, and on the dyno run we had #72 which produced a 12.5:1 air/fuel ratio.
or the external tranny cooler.
hopefully will be able to get both tomorrow. Only one shop in north austin has the jets. its is now almost 40 miles away.
Sam
#58
08-25-2009, 08:03 PM
I was told the tranny fluid was run thru the radiator to bring the tranny fluid up to temp (about 170-175) faster in cold weather areas. Cold fluid shortens the life of the tranny. Also temp of every 20 degrees above 175 will shorten the ATF fluid life to half life. example 100,000 to 50,000 miles for 195 degrees. Also there is a tranny to radiator input and return lines. Input over return if installed over each other. Not to bypass the radiator when adding remote tranny cooler unless you live/operate in only hot areas of the country.
There is a fellow named Lynn Schoonover in Riverside, Ca that has a 56 f-1 with a 428 cobra and a C-6 using a Griffin radiator, a 16 inch fan and a deep tranny pan having extra fluid. Don't know if he is FTE or not. Maybe he may have suggestions.
I don't know about the overflow tank but does it vent at the top when the radiator expells fluid and does it hold enought fluid so when it sucks fluid it doesn't run out of fluid and sucks air. chuck
There is a fellow named Lynn Schoonover in Riverside, Ca that has a 56 f-1 with a 428 cobra and a C-6 using a Griffin radiator, a 16 inch fan and a deep tranny pan having extra fluid. Don't know if he is FTE or not. Maybe he may have suggestions.
I don't know about the overflow tank but does it vent at the top when the radiator expells fluid and does it hold enought fluid so when it sucks fluid it doesn't run out of fluid and sucks air. chuck
the overflow tank has a tall tube and short tube.. tall tube is for secondary overflow, and initially after filling the overflow tank will overflow about 1/3-1/2 cup of fluid (over its capacity). I have not tried a larger overflow tank. but would be easy to do.
I was about to say that this rad has an a typical fill neck, mounted on the SIDE of the upper tank, not the top.. this might lead to a small, 1/2 by 3 by 15 in space of air in the top of the tank.
Sam
#59
08-25-2009, 09:26 PM
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I missed the info on the radiator cap. He said try a 15lb cap, you said you have a 13lb. Have you tried it? chuck
Do you have room between the back of the radiator fans and the engine to install maybe a one inch standoff on the four bolt between the shroud and it's mounts. This would dump the extra air within the shroud for a test and still be a safe test. I still think the same about the air flow in one of my previous thoughts. You need slots or holes everywhere in the shroud that there isn't a fan. Restricted air flow. Just my thoughts. chuck
Do you have room between the back of the radiator fans and the engine to install maybe a one inch standoff on the four bolt between the shroud and it's mounts. This would dump the extra air within the shroud for a test and still be a safe test. I still think the same about the air flow in one of my previous thoughts. You need slots or holes everywhere in the shroud that there isn't a fan. Restricted air flow. Just my thoughts. chuck
Last edited by 49fordpickumup; 08-25-2009 at 09:37 PM. Reason: addition
#60
08-25-2009, 09:50 PM
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Sam, Cool tool eh? Sounds like the radiator/fans are doing their job,..but the engine temp keeps rising..??.How high will it go before you want to shut things down? Is 205-210 out of the ballpark for this engine?
How does it run..any hesitation on accel from a stop? Any stumbling thru the gears at lite throttle? How many miles on your new engine??..time enough to yank the plugs and read for color? Tan across the ceramics (like coffee/w creamer) is just right.
It might just be a little tight being a fresh rebuild..and things will loosen up some as the miles/hours accumulate.Have you changed the oil yet? What wt are you using? I know thats alot of questions, and probably more coming..Your laser is a good investment already..arn't ya glad you don't have to wonder and guess...LoL! Keep it "real' handy..like on the front seat for awhile until you get things sorted out,..that sounds like what is going on at this stage of the game ..learning how the new beast likes to breathe., and making adjustments to allow it to be more comfortable..LoL..Keep after it, and BTW, dosen't sound like you have had the time to drive/take temp readings yet..don't rush things ,the weekend will be here soon enough,sounds like engine temps are a little higher than normal,but,..don't ignore the high trans temp if present..let's get some cooler line temps..Good Luck!
How does it run..any hesitation on accel from a stop? Any stumbling thru the gears at lite throttle? How many miles on your new engine??..time enough to yank the plugs and read for color? Tan across the ceramics (like coffee/w creamer) is just right.
It might just be a little tight being a fresh rebuild..and things will loosen up some as the miles/hours accumulate.Have you changed the oil yet? What wt are you using? I know thats alot of questions, and probably more coming..Your laser is a good investment already..arn't ya glad you don't have to wonder and guess...LoL! Keep it "real' handy..like on the front seat for awhile until you get things sorted out,..that sounds like what is going on at this stage of the game ..learning how the new beast likes to breathe., and making adjustments to allow it to be more comfortable..LoL..Keep after it, and BTW, dosen't sound like you have had the time to drive/take temp readings yet..don't rush things ,the weekend will be here soon enough,sounds like engine temps are a little higher than normal,but,..don't ignore the high trans temp if present..let's get some cooler line temps..Good Luck!