Ken, you feel strongly about this and so do I. We will have to agree to disagree.

If you polled store employees on a nationwide basis, I believe you might be barraged by stories of injuries, assaults, and just plain bad behavior. As I said in my original post, injuries are not newsworthy so you won't find these in a google search of press accounts (I only found one other trampling account in Broward county FL, but I'll bet police and ER logs nationwide would reveal quite a few incidents of rowdy, out of control crowds and related injuries).

I've seen it for myself and it ain't pretty. Many of these stores did NOT have adequate security or crowd control and there were no police on the scene unless called. This whole Black Friday thing is just the sort of atmosphere that brings out the worst in people. These stores clearly put their customers in harm's way by a situation they created. If you want to defend them for creating this environment then so be it, but there will be charges filed in the Long Island case and it remains to be determined if Wal Mart will be named, but I'll bet their legal team is already preparing their defense.

 

AGREE to the agreeing to disagreeing........


as for responsibility......they create the same dang-fangled intensely emotional atmosphere every year....maybe not resulting in death every year, but you hear about nightmare situations coming from each and every black friday sale.......it has progressively become worse with each year, with each better sale guaranteed to out-do last years by leaps and bounds, with aggressive shopping behaviour also becoming progressively more intense......

no! I cannot ultimately control the actions of another 'human being' yet I can control the atmosphere that I promote in my business.....and when a company the size of Walmart wants to make the big buck, they limit their items, lower their prices and promote a state of frenzy where they do not care about the safety of their employees, let alone their customers.....they only care about the bottom line, that being profit.....

my 18 year old son works for walmart.....I will not publish the 'heart-warming' memo from the guys at the top about the black friday sale....trust me.....IT IS UGLY~ but I will say, no where does it discuss safety of the employees or their customers, it is basically sell, sell, sell.....at all cost!!

As this will be my last post in this thread, I agree to disagree....we are all individual and have our own minds and the freedom to express them in this manner.....arguing our point will not change someone elses mind.....

THANK YOU, Ken.....for the mental duel~~~

sounds like we raise our children much the same

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

 

Injuries, assaults and bad behavior occurs everywhere in retail on any given day during the year.....Your point?

Injuries to who? Employees? Between customers? There are thousands of local papers. The press has been all over Black Friday....Looking forward to the event, and I guarantee you that they reported every notable 'disturbance' incident that occurred.

If you didn't find it in your google search, then it didn't happen.

Nope.

Charlotte (NC) went off without a hitch. Heavy traffic and lines at the doors (at least in the morning anyway)....But that's pretty much it. Aside from maintaining a presence in mall and shopping center parking lots when not on another call, that was pretty much the extent of a 'police' presence.....The riot squad wasn't needed.

This is Black Friday we're talking about here......Not the storming of Omaha Beach on D-Day!

What are you basing this on? Direct observation? The 'poll' that you suggest one takes of retail workers nationwide? What do you mean by 'crowd control'?

There's no need for the police unless 'called'....The police have better things to do than babysit every line of idiots standing outside any given retail outlet at oh-dark-thirty on the Friday after Thanksgiving. Nor do the police have the staffing. Nor is it needed.

The trampling death which OP'd this thread is an 'anomaly'......It is not a common event.

99% of the shoppers waiting in line Friday morning did absolutely NOTHING but get their merchandise, walk to checkout, break out the credit card, make their purchase, then walk to their vehicle and leave.

I would say that the worst was brought out in some shoppers at the Wal-Mart in Long Island. But again, this was an anomalous event.

Oh....Clearly.....

What...By having a sale? The Friday after Thanksgiving (once again) is the traditional start of the Christmas shopping season---and it has been for decades. This goes hand-in-hand with sales given at nearly every retail outlet in the country.

Please explain yourself when you say that the stores are putting their customers in harm's way.

Now it was an EMPLOYEE who got killed....Not a customer......So what are you getting at here? (aside from sounding like a nanny-state government bureaucrat).

And I'll bet they'd be praying that they don't end up with a guy like you on the jury......

The people who should worry are the customers they identify in the video who first knocked over and trampled the employee.....If that were MY family member who got killed, I'd be suing them for wrongful death.

Now it's been said that it's Wal-Mart who has the deep pockets, and this is probably true.......But emptying out the savings accounts---then winning garnishments for life from the paychecks in the amount of 10% from the 5, or 10, or 20 cattle who knocked over the door and killed my family member, would grant it's own brand of satisfaction and justice.

Wal-Mart didn't kill the employee. A herd-beast, animalistic, self-obsessed mentality from the crowd killed the employee. The fact that Wal-Mart was selling Samsung 50" plasma HD flat-screen TVs for $798.00 doesn't change this fact.

 

Strange... the only pre-Black Friday memo I can find doesn't say anything (or hint) about "sell, sell, sell!"

Memo From Rob Walton to Wal-Mart Employees - WSJ.com

I searched quite a bit, found many Walmart memos... but nothing concerning sell, sell, sell on the Black Friday weekend. If someone can provide a one sentence quote from it I'll be able to locate any existing copy in minutes.

 

i bet they cut some large checks to sweep it under the rug

 

"Injuries, assaults and bad behavior occurs everywhere in retail on any given day during the year.....Your point?"

My point is: "Why do anything to encourage it?

"Injuries to who? Employees? Between customers? There are thousands of local papers. The press has been all over Black Friday....Looking forward to the event, and I guarantee you that they reported every notable 'disturbance' incident that occurred. If you didn't find it in your google search, then it didn't happen."

Employees, customers, or innocent bystanders. There are quite a few reasons why these 'disturbances' often don't make it into the press, only one of which is that big retailers have large advertizing accounts. As for search engines, the Wal Mart incident dominated all searches; you have to be pretty dilligent just to get past all those.

"Charlotte (NC) went off without a hitch. Heavy traffic and lines at the doors (at least in the morning anyway)....But that's pretty much it. Aside from maintaining a presence in mall and shopping center parking lots when not on another call, that was pretty much the extent of a 'police' presence.....The riot squad wasn't needed."

I suppose if it didn't happen in Charlotte, it couldn't have been any different elsewhere?

When I suggested these stores do not have adequate security or crowd control, it was based on my observations, discussions with employees, and news accounts. By crowd control, I don't mean cops in riot gear but an implemented plan to keep the crowds contained and orderly.

"This is Black Friday we're talking about here......Not the storming of Omaha Beach on D-Day!" (in response to "I've seen it for myself and it ain't pretty.")

Last Black Friday I witnessed a stampede in which at least four people were injured; two required hospitalization. One of the fallen victims was slid out of the way by an employee as rushing shoppers jumped over her. At the next store, just 5 minutes after opening, most of the advertized merchandise was already gone and even those with vouchers could not get their items. Shoppers were angry, shouting, and one assaulted a store employee.
At the third store, 10 minutes after opening, again, most sale items sold out. Several items near the doors had been damaged in the crush to get in and one employee had been shoved. Spoke with employees of other stores who told similar stories. I also witnessed several scuffles in the parking lots.

None of this was mentioned in the newspaper. Maybe all this was just an anomalous event too, but maybe not...it impacts you when you witness it firsthand.

"these stores clearly put their customers in harm's way by a situation they created." "Oh....Clearly....What...By having a sale?"

No, by having a sale in which a very limited amount of merchandise was offered at a very low price, and no orderly way for shoppers to have access to those few items other than to push through the doors as fast as possible in competition with several thousand others shoppers. BAD IDEA. Agree or disagree, THAT'S MY POINT!

I agree with cmpd that most shoppers are well behaved, but it only takes a few to endanger the rest. I'm not saying these stores are responsible for the bad behavior of their shoppers, but they should take reponsibility for the safety of their customers and employees and reconsider policies or promotions that could put either group at risk.

 

I can see that everyone on here has some good points. Yes, it is a tragedy that someone was killed, and others hurt. I have a stupid sister that engages in this behavior every year. She said you have to be willing to push people out of your way, and don't let them push you around when you go to these stores. Having been raised on a dairy farm, when the herd decides they're coming your way, and they're in a hurry, get the hell out of the way! You will not stop them, and they will hurt you, or worse.

 

Not sure on this, my wife heard that the pregnant woman who was in the hospital for observation lost the baby later that day. I live next to a major shopping area for the northern ky region, when I finally decided to get up and leave, it was pandemonium. I didn't even go out until 1pm and it was ridiculous the way people were acting on the roads, I can only imagine how they were acting in the stores. the only reason I went out at all that day was to take my wife's new puppy to the vet to be checked out.

 

I played it smart.

My BUTT stayed home all day!

It is bad enough driving through what I call "The Woman's Nightmare" on a normal day. Why increase my odds of being in a crash with someone gabbing on the phone, putting on makeup, slapping kids in the backseat, while driving 20 mph above the speed limit.

NOT ME!

Woman's Nightmare is what I call the shopping center south of Charleston on 219. Stores on both sides for two miles including Lowes, Sams and Wally World. Six lanes of utter insanity.

 

My point being that blaming ANY of it on the stores is ludicrous. This gives a 'pass' to the mob behavior of some shoppers. People are responsible for their own actions. I would also call to question the common sense of shoppers who even partake in 'Black Friday' shopping when a) you can get pretty much anything you want on the internet......including that $798.00 Samsung 50" plasma TV from Wal-Mart, and b) there is a continuous 3-week 'sale' nearly everywhere every single day at most retail locations who would do anything to unload their stock during the Christmas season......even granting 'Black Friday' sales at any time during the season.....

But for a lot of people, especially the shopaholics, 'Black Friday' is a social event---not to be missed. They've GOTTA be there....Hell or High Water.

Wal-Mart will likely compensate the family of the employee in any event---that would just be the right thing to do anyway. But again---if I were a family member, I'd do my damndest to have the main perps identified, then go after THEIR pocketbooks. It might be more spinning of the wheels than anything, but screw it......Lifetime garnishment of wages when you win a suit like that WOULD hurt them.......And it would be well-deserved.

 

Well I lay blame on the store for shutting the dang doors in the first place! Aren't they a 24 hour store?
The local Walmart here was open all night and they didn't let anyone buy anything until 5 am. At least that's what my wife told me. Aparently shoppers loaded their baskets before 5 am.
They tried closing at midnight last year and opening at 5am but it was a "mess" I was told so the local manager decided to leave the doors open all night this year.

I never, ever go out on this so-called Black Friday. If they can lower prices that much for a few hours that one day, they can do it on other days also.

 

well as a Freakishly large man, a term of endearement from my wife stolen from a major movie, i can say that i dont stand aside and witness behavior without saying something. A situation like this i can tell you where i would be....... I would be the absolute immovable object standing in front of this man, allowing him a space to gather his wits and back him out of harms way. There is absolutely no excuse for any strong able bodied person of some social value, to have not attempted a "rescue", no excuse whatsoever! I will never shy away from human responsibility in a situation where a weaker person needs a hand! I find the actions of the crowd to be repulsive! Dan

 

Hand Clap for Dan. Your comments strikes home the point. Me, if I had been in front of the line, I more than likely would have been arrested. The first push, I would have pulled my weapon, fired in the air and told them to back off of me or get their butt shot.

 

I heard on the news that the guy trampled was no small guy himself. 6'5" and around 275lbs. But if you go down and they're coming over the top of you, it would be darn tough to get back up, or move out of the way.

 

well put. I talked to a local WM manager and explained my situation about the first three in the store got every sale drill. He said they were contemplating going to a one per customer next year. would be nice. I told him they could just do preorders or only put so many out at a time and give people a time limit in the store so they can get out and others have a chance to shop and actually have room to breathe and a chance to actually get something they too have been saving for.

there is always a solution to everything. It may not be what some want but right now anything is better than what is in place.

We looked on ebay and sure enough oodles of stuff from Black friday in my area was listed. One seller had multiples and I know just where she got them.