I agree with you on this but I also believe a lot of what a child / teen does is what the teen chooses to do. Teens aren't exact replicas of their parents.
For instance, I've known plenty of teens who turned out horribly - and they had excellent parents. I believe a big part of this is how the parents raised the child.
Envirement / Self Choice / Disaplinary Actions are three big things that has to do with how a child comes out.

I'm tired.Am I making any sense what so ever?

 

I went back and looked. He has no rep "scales" any more.

Didn't know you guys could do that!

Pop

 

Back to "Black Friday"...( if we want to discuss the next generation I have TONS of ancdotal instances, including today)...

We (the wife and I) really don't go out to shop for gifts, be they Christmas or B-day anymore.

Ever since Al Gore invented the internet we've been having stuff delivered right to our house...works out pretty good, shop from home.

Now if you love that "hands on" experience, which we don't, then all the power to ya.

On another note: a busy shopping day such as this is a vote for consumer confidence and a plus for an otherwise poor economy.

 

I used to participate in this madness, but there were nearly always displays of people behaving poorly. After witnessing a stampede similar to what happened in NY, I swore off going anywhere near a store on Black Friday. We have all heard about the Long Island employee, God rest his soul, but it wasn't newsworthy that hundreds across the country were injured to some extent in human sideswipes & scuffles.

This behavior is way beyond unacceptable. In the Long Island case, the ultimate responsibilty must lie with the individual shoppers, and I hope the videos reveal the culprits and they are charged, but some of the blame has to go to the stores for permitting, if not encouraging, this mentality.

I applaud the stores who give out numbers and only allow so many shoppers in at a time, or have some other voucher system to ensure that those that waited the longest were rewarded in a civilized fashion, rather than allowing a "free-for-all". It could be argued (and Long Island is the proof) that these stores are creating a "mob mentality" with little to no regard for the safety of their customers. I hope "the poop hits the fan" and big retailers are forced to make some policy changes before the next Black Friday.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I can't see how a business should be held responsible the actions of its customers. It feels so anti-liberty and anti-personal responsibility. There are tens of thousands of businesses all over the country with black Friday sales who did not have this problem... you cannot place this on the business's shoulders. I believe its an unforeseeable anomaly. People are just way too sue-happy -- don't give the lawyers a free pass on this and point the finger at Walmart (I'm defending them in this instance even though I don't like them.... right is right, wrong is wrong).

 

"In the Long Island case, the ultimate responsibilty must lie with the individual shoppers..."

I'm with ya, Ken, just making the point that the stores that advertize a very low price on expensive items "While Supplies Last", & previous experience has shown that only a very few of these items are in stock, entice thousands of people to amass outside the store, growing impatient, excited, and "VERY FOCUSED" as the opening time nears. To just fling open the doors to such a determined mob, with virtually no rules whatsoever, is akin to yelling "FIRE" in a crowded building. If only one out of 100 of that throng misbehaves, it still puts all the others at risk. I'm just suggesting these stores should recognize they are responsible for creating a situation in which people can get hurt or worse. Wouldn't you agree there has to be a better, safer way to attract customers?

 

". There are tens of thousands of businesses all over the country with black Friday sales who did not have this problem... "

The fact that there was only one fatality by no means means that there were no other "stampede" incidents nationwide.

 

The vast majority of the stores in this country didn't have stampedes, I'd wager. Its in an extreme minority of stores which have seen this... but bad news sells better than good news, and bad news gets people riled up emotionally rather than logically. Take a look at some of the things people have said here... some of it was racist and had to be removed. Its an emotional, knee-jerk reaction. Personal responsibility isn't held in high regard by everyone --- its easier to blame the "system", an institution, society, a store, a corporation, etc.

 

I am going to apologize up front for anything that I might say that may upset anyone....I AM SORRY....but I have completely mixed feelings about all this....

I know that parents are ultimately held responsible for the actions of their children when things get out of hand, and I also know that when the child does something that is extraordinary they also get a pat on the back for "a job well done" in raising said child....why doesnt the child get the knock on the head when they do wrong? Why doesnt the child get the pat on the back when they do good?

I will tell you what I think.....I think it is because our society is a place of recognition.....and if it is GOOD recognition EVERYONE wants their just rewards......just as the parent receives accolades for a childs accomplishments, the boss takes the credit for an employee under him for saving the account.....therefore, if the parent/boss is willing to 'graciously' accept ultimate reward for the accomplishment, then shouldnt they be willing to accept responsibilities for all the bad that may come out of the same child/employee??

I dont know, call me crazy, but it sounds a bit one-sided here.......

as for Walmart being responsible for the horrendous crowds that gather on these so called black fridays.....THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.....they post their ads, they place their priorities on profit and not safety....for all who have been there-done that, you know first hand, it is a flippin mad-house....they do not care about the employees or the customers....all they care about is the bottom line....PROFIT

I know this from personal experience......

and I am sorry, but to promote such a sale and allow such behaviour just to make the all mighty dollar is just outrageous and beyond my comprehension


I will close my bumbling ramble on a happy note.......

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

 

Doesn't upset me.

My do, but not a real knock on the head, but they have consequences and punishment for making the wrong decisions.

Mine get praise as well.

The opposite for me. My children get accolades for their accomplishments, I don't.

My opinion is good parents do accept responsibility. I've also had bosses that heaped out praise, Christmas bonus, raises, etc.

Only crazy for the one sided parents, not for all.

What if you posted a holiday discount at a business you owned and as a result had only one item left on a busy weekend? Two of your customers get in a fight because they both wanted the last remaining item and one stabs the other. Should you be held responsible because its your sign, your sale, and your profit motive? There's no way you could have foreseen a fight and a stabbing. What if one day you were the lawsuit target of someone else trying to shift blame and responsibility on you for their actions? Look at it that way...

Besides... if Walmart is that bad you can always choose to shop elsewhere and pay more.

 

I look at it this way. Not only is Walley World responsible, but so are the customers. Walley World is responsible for only one reason, they needed crowd control measures in place with security and baracades in place. The parking lot should have been closed security in place to allow only traffic to enter once the store opened. Also, a sign should have been posted that anyone caught on the property before the store opened would be arrested for trespassing.

Also, the store should have seen the problem developing and just made the announcement that unless they disbanded, the store would not open and have armed police enforcement there to enforce that decision and make them leave the area.

Then the customers are responsible for just acting like a damn bunch of piranhnas <sic>. As soon as this problem occurred, the store should have been closed. Anyone even opening thier mouth should have been handcuffed and escorted out and charged with causing or exciting a riot. Everyone that entered the store should be charged, not the only the ones in front but up to the last one that stepped over the man's body.

 

This Walmart hired extra security and had crowd barricades in place for the event. The retailers association said they aren't aware of any deaths ever on black Friday due to trampling. The local police was also aware of the large crowds. This was trampling death on black Friday entirely without precedent and unforeseen. This store didn't have these issues in past years and used similar security this year so why should they have expected it this year? Charging all 2000 people... most of them weren't even aware it happened until after it happened. The Walmart tried to get people out after it happened.... many people wouldn't leave and didn't know about the deaths. It took quite some time to get it all straightened out.

Many crimes people say "they should have seen the signs and foreseen the events", the problem is there are signs all the time which don't result in an event. For instance 100+ years of Christmas events at department stores without trampling deaths. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

I believe Walmart is responsible for the safety of its employee's

I go to work every day and expect not to die. I can expect this, because there are safety standards in place while using table saws, chainsaws, forklifts, and other dangerous equiptment.

now if 2 of my customeres want to knife eachother, I agree, there's nothing i can do about that.


which were better prepared, Some stores make a neat line, some hand out vouchers long before the doors open

I think you can, WM was not prepared
a human chain, to stop 2000 whack jobs? What kind of riot control is that? Its a death wish

this was an obvious dangerous situation, They could have called the police to disperse the crowd

 

Okay, wanna clear up the fact that I did NOT hand out any negative rep to the kid. It's just something that I try not to do, even when, in my opinion, a post clearly deserves it. I figure it's my choice to read the post, their choice to put it there in the first place. I can always just ignore it if I want. I don't feel that me sending out negative rep will do any good anyway, so I simply don't do it.


That said, I agree with you, Paul. This man's death could and should have been avoided, and even though I would think that the majority of the shoppers might not have stepped on the fellow, and maybe did'nt know that he had been trampled to death, the store should have been closed immediately, and anyone who disagreed should have been taken to jail. When this man died, the store became a crime scene, and the first thing to do at a crime scene is to secure it so that clues can be found and evidence taken.

This is my last post in this thread. It was'nt my intent to offend anyone.