Max, I find it interesting that you would presume to know what I think flows best. But methinks you have no clue as to what you are talking about. Wouldn't the SCJ have the same heads as the CJ engine ? And wouldn't that be the C8OE-N casting ? So were did the C6AE-E come from ? DF

 

I underestimated you. For your information C6AE-E are Rods. I thought you would fall for that, because I felt you did not have a clue.
You forgot to add, C80E-H were 68 cj/scj heads.
This sparring can only end up with hard feelings, so I will give you the last post, and end it here.
Have a nice day...

 

Carroll Shelby was once quoted "Horsepower sells cars, TORQUE wins races!" I believe he said that back in the mid-to-lates 60's. In a little town. In France... felt it was time to lighten the mood, fellahs

 

Good advice...
All is good here.
Maxtor

 

No Dino I'am not reading from book how bad Iron heads are...Quite Different... I know too the edheads are slugs out of the box... Thats why years ago I had Les Schmader Max effort port my C4's for me.. and he said he could get probably 290cfm out of them, and I was fine with that, But I had him drop ship them to a guy in Richmond ,VA..that runs a flow shop and thats all he does is verify #s head porters claim...well I got lucky mine pull out right at 300cfm as I remember.. So I wasnt putting down the stock heads I just said they wouldnt support 450hp without mods!!

Look at all the owrk Greg did to his 446 ? how many ponies you figure greg made? It damn sure wasnt over 500hp thats for sure...as it didnt show it in his MPH at the track... A few years ago Edelbrock did the 390 RPM build and with the Cr up from stock I believe it was 10 to 1...and a RPM intake on it..RPM Cam...Edheads, and headers, It made 420hp from what I remember and it was a modded motor...

Jay Brown from the other site and with a *****load of FE building experiance and R&D under his belt..with a .030" over 428, and edheads CJ valves..and every Intake you could throw at it..was hard pressed staying at the 400hp range soem amde like 410 416 ? I think the T-ram came out ontop...but it needed more cam... And I'am going by people I know, Like Brian and his killer 511, that motor is a work of art...and as he just said the Best Money can Buy got him approx 700hp with 511 cubes.. thats a whopping 121 cubes more than the 390 ? and he's running the Edheads that are CNCed and blow out about 370cfm....

Anyway the original Q was about the C4's and maybe with CJ size valves in them ? and without an other than stock intake , a nice size cam, and carb, CR it aint gonna happen.... Like I said before Dino I always have repected your opinion...But I think your way off base on this one...

Just like people use to and some probably still do believe that a stock 428 would put out about 400hp as to there claimed 335 to 360hp... well as Jay brown proved with his Dyno mule...the 428 wasnt as close to the 400hp as it was cliamed with the mods that were done to his and only pulled out a few more ponies than everyone thought thay were claimed to have had...the proof is in the Dyno....as was Edelbrocks..But I think Edelbrocks was fudged a little as they cliamed to get the same hp out of there 390 build that JB got from his 428....

Well I'am done with this ...to each his own....and Like my Dad always said Built it your way..and listen to the guys who have been there and done that...and not all engine were created equal....

Oh and on a PS....the reason why the Edheads will out flow the ported Iron heads when there also ported ..Is that they have more meat in the critical areas that need to be re-worked..and the stock Iron run into air or water..

Russ

 

Guys, the biggest problems that The FE has is lack of understanding. Folks believe things that are just not true. Even the most lame of the FE heads, the C8AE-H, can do the 450 hp our poster was looking for. Lets think about this for amoment, we are only asking the engine to produce 1.15 hp per cubic inch. That just isn't very much. Many, many FEs have been built with the wrong pistons, resulting in not nearly enough compression. More than 9 out of 10 times, if you are rebuilding a 390, the parts kit will have a set of 381Ps in the master kit box. If you are not super familiar with FEs, and most shops aren't, you get a copy of the mid 70s truck piston. That piston only gave 8 to 1 compression when it was new. The copies are actually slightly shorter and give less compression. The FE came from the factory with steel shim gaskets that were about .017 thick. The most common rebuider gasket is .041 thick, which lowrs compression even more. If you rebuilt a 390 with the 'normal' pistons, and used the usual replacement gaskets, you would have 7.8 to 1 compression. Ford also retarded the cam timing, on the gears, in the early 70s. It was supposed to be an emissions thing. But it lowers power output. How many guys know to use a pre 1971 timing set and specifically ask for the pistons that will give enough compression ? Almost none. At the shop I'm with, we ask the customer what he is going to put the engine into, and what he will do with it, and what fuel he will use. Then we get him an appropriate timing set, the right pistons, and a cam that will do what he needs. My next grump is tha tcam most people think they need. Car magazines are the problem. For the last few decades, they have been preaching not to buy too big of a cam. Well, customers have taken that message a little too much to heart. That, and the fact that cams are sold more by marketing names than the numbers that matter, lift, duration, and spread.

In the example of Jay's 428 dyno mule, there was not enough compression and the cam was absolutely TINY. But his tests did very well show us how differant intakes work, which is what it was supposed to do. But those results are really only relevant if you have a milquetoast 428. Add more compression, or a real camshaft and all of the 'limitations' folks think FEs have are gone. DinosaurFan, on work's old 'puter

 

Well the motor in my truck right now is 395"s with C4's and CJ valves, Block has been squared and decked , so the pistons come right up to the deck...about 10.3 to 1 cr..and I run a Rollmaster Timing set..for the 428cj in it...an Erson Solid roller cam 640/647" and 240/248* dur... a cast S code intake, a 750 Holley and 1 7/8" heddman headers, Rotating assy is all internally balanced...

And I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut it wont break the 400hp limit....I havent had it on a Dyno....But by the seat of the pants dyno....I would give it 380 to 400hp.. As I have a cousin with the same truck and we built a 466" (460 based) motor for it and did the swap.. and he had his dynoed and tuned on the dyno and he puts out right at 465hp on a mild build... Now granted his is a torquer....But he can take off and leave me at any givin speed.....

And Dino I personally are aware of all the points you brought up in the above post...And I grant you that alot of engine builder will use Mr. gasket .039" head gaskets or the Fel-pro .041" and use a retarded timing set....But I do all my own work accept for the major machining and this will change in the future as I now have access to a Machine shop that my cousin owns...where I cant do most but not all the machining..

and as my set-up is now....I had to go to a cam with more duration to get away from the detonation of the pump swill at the local gas station...and I still run 93 octane with some booster in it on warm days...

But anyway I think I have about beat this horse past dead.... End of story, and it was a good exchange of Idea's.....I rest my case ! LOL

Russ

 

Russ, the horse isn't dead. It is alive and well and running fast enough that it is so far in front of you that you can't even see it anymore. Some of you guys just don't get it. I would agree that your truck engine won't make 400. But that is the intake's fault. If you kept your shortblock and heads and pipes, but added a Blue Thunder intake and added an 850, you could have your 450. Or, rather Wes could follow your build and add the correct manifold and carb and have 450 horsepower. It isn't that the blue thunder could add the last 50 all by itself, but that your current setup is severly choking what you have, and letting it breathe in enough will show the power potential that is already there. What amazes me is how some guys think this is hard to do or something. I've already done it and so have many others. It just isn't that difficult. Think of it this way, since I know lots of you are familiar with Jay's dyno engines, lets recall the latest 503 hp stroker 390 that he had in CCM. He had a big solid cam and unported Edelbrocks. Since we already know unported Edel's don't gain you anything over stock, and Jay made 503 and I believe him, why is a stock iron head making 450 so hard to fathom ? Jay made his power at a lower rpm because the stroker works the heads and the cam earlier than a standard stroke. But if you have the standard heads and a big enough cam, and you wind the engine up to 72-7300, the power WILL be there. I'm not surprized your cousin can pull away from you at will. Your intake is a real choke point and the 460 can really be made to scream. Where was his hp measured, at the flywheel or the rear tires ? I ask because one of the 460s we built with iron heads ( D3VE ? ) made 600 at the flywheel when the customer dynoed it. If you can live with a choppy idle, it just ain't that hard. DinosaurFan, on work's old 'puter

 

Didn't we have a BS smiley? Where did it go?
An old adage is:
If you say it enough times, even you believe it.

Life is good.

I wonder if I can get 10,000 hp out of my stock 2.0 Focus. Maybe, if I say it enough times.
And with this reasoning, I could get 15,000 hp out of our 428scj and 20-25k out of our 427.. Boy, I like this new way of thinking.

 

Ok I'am not as stupid as I look ? well maybe I am... But I pulled out my EA3 Analyzer that alot of shops use...and came up with this... Argue all you want...But its closer than guessing!!

My build in the Truck now with C4's and CJ valves and the throats opened for the bigger valves and port matched....750 cfm holley and the S intake....right at 380hp

My build with a BT single plane and an 850 holley....420 hp....

My build with BT single plane and an 850 holley, Max effort C4's cj valves and flowing 300cfm at .700" Les Schmader porting.... 514hp ..and that plenum work on the BT and a ported intake and port match... Now I could pick up another 30 hp going to a .080" higher lift cam....But with that much lift it wont live on the street for long....

And also were getting into HD rockers and Springs and Stands and end stands and caps walk and a number of other things ... But once agin as I said I dont belive a set of any stock 390 heads are going to support 450hp without something being modded on them !! You can sneak up to it...in other ways but it'll be damn hard to break that 450hp mark.....and CJ size valves just wont do it!!

Hell if there was ...there wouldnt be any need for aftermarket heads... Other than weight!! And Take a look at Brians build.... TOP dollar Custom build...I dont know for a fact what he has in the build? But I would guess about 20 to 25K and its a Top Dog built motor... I have seen ..well in pics not personally what that man has built...and he doesnt slack on anything!!

He says he came out with what 700hp at sea level...I do think he's holding a few horse back on that...LOL ..But none the less..It takes Big money and a hell of alot of work to get Big Hp out of the FE's.. I think Brians Heads are flowing what 370 cfm..... So he's about used what there good for now..

And you keep comparing Dino the stock FE Iron heads to the Edheads... the stockers on a good day are flowing 230 to 240 cfm Max with no work done.. And Larry's Edheads with just a tootsie roll clean up are at 270 +..So lets just say for Grins and giggles Wes has a set of heads with CJ's in them that flow 240cfm....at max with a ton of money in the motor and everything at it prime!! He's looking at 480hp.... and thats with everything just right.. the 2hp per cfm ..and NOT everyone gets that..One aww ***** in the build blows that theory right out the door..Is that what you wanted to hear?? The kid is 19....and unless he has the Change to thro at that 390..IT aint gonna happen!!

And with my cousins 460.. it wasnt built as a race motor or street strip!! Its in his dually and all I did was change the intake and bump the CR up a tad and put in an RV cam in it.... as he use's it to tow his Cuda to the track..

I'am done with this thread....as much fun as it was Dino !! you cam bring up some good points..But you just dont seem to want to listen or even understand where someone else ids coming from...This little Dis -Agreement Wont as far as I 'am concerned keep us from being friends..Its just that sometimes Builder just dont see Eye to Eye!! But all in all I do repect your opinion...where would the world be without them!!

Russ
AKA/RJ

 

Not just yet Russ, I'm a bit curious about the "swill's" part in the EA3 data. What fuel are you running in the equation for the comparison ? Just for some insight as I have no if this is 87-93% or 104 or ???? And would be quite curious what the range would be between med grade pump and mixed for track with the same build.

 

Oh My bad bobby !! all those test were run with 93 octane we have back here at $4.50 a gallon plus some track 110 to mix a 50/50 to make 100 octane to run with Iron heads...Now some can get by with a retarding of the timing depending on quench and the the bleed off of compression of there cam...But you just have to play with it and test it....Alot of thing s come into play there Altitude , air density. Temputure ambient outside.. and engine temp.... So its not a direct science...something that you need to play with...

I wish I could be more precise..but as we all now....engines are like attitudes ..everyone has a differnet one!! LMAO!!

RJ

 

Russ,

Just so you have the information you need, my heads were sent with flow data from Keith Craft showing 380/270. Some people have questioned Keith's numbers, but that's what my sheet said. Also, my Victor manifold is ported all the way through into the pushrod tubes to match the heads.

-Scouder

 

MY GOD the 87 is 4.73 here at the moment. FKN unreal, some folks are going down to mexico to fill up on Diesel as it's almost half the $ 2.73 gal I think... topic wandering lol.

Anywho thanks for the heads up on that. I'm picking up the 390 from the machine shop Friday and will be giving it a thorough looking over during the weekend. It feels good to be getting back to the hobby side of things again. All the around the house **** is a real buzz kill LMAO!!

 

OK Brian, Yeah close just doesnt get it anymore when you get to the level that you and a few others are at... And I would but KC feels comfortable with those #s or he wouldnt advertise them...He's slick as you know and has all the parts and machinery to play with..and has been in this game for a long time...

By the same token I know guys that are just going by "what they use too do" and it doesnt hold any water today...There just trying to make there last nickle before closing the doors..

But I also think..' Know" your motor has some left on the table too..as I'am quite sure you know...and that without anymore work to be done...But your pretty close to crowding the heads now.. But KC has done things in the CNC program alot of people dont even know about..and I personally am not a fan of the Edheads...I think the BT's are a much better head quility wise both casting and maching work...But what shook me about them was having to use the Custom T&D? rocker set up at $1100 way back when....

So between you and JB those are the 2 highest hp 427 based motors that I personally know... at 700 to 750hp....and thats ***** to the wall..N/A...and i think you beat JB hp ratings at N/A if I'am npot mistaken...

There are a Father and son team...I did read about.... "Read" about that have a set of early stangs that claim they run about 700 to 750hp N/A but there motor are so ratical they cant be street driven.....and as you know...HP cost Bucks..... in a N/A version..... So when someone tells me 450hp out of a stock headed 390 is easy!!! I say build em and sell em..there will be guys and gals lined up to buy then "IF" they stay together!! LOL..

I have studied these motor's over the years til hell wont have it..and I just dont see it..... But I have been wrong before and I'll be wrong again...I just want someone to show me a build sheet and a Dyno sheet..and even the Dyno sheet is only going to tell you what the motor does in a contralled enviroment?? LOL...

And Bobby I didnt forget about your Q..I'll try and get to that next.. And Brian !! Once again Bro!! Hats Off!!

RJ