I was wondering if anyone has any good suggestions on getting some more hp out of my injected 460? I"m just starting to stock class truck pull and can use any advise on getting more out of this engine,mods right now are k&n air filter,headers with real dual exhuast,and a jet brand chip,the truck is still speed density,but I'm considering maf.

 

Mr.Smith

This is what i ussually post about my mods for a EFI 460.

EFI 460 performance is a dangerous area and spendy very few have ventured past the basics so the questions exists how far do you wish to go?

Doug Thorley Tri Y's ($600) are a reasonible set of headers make a huge difference, an open element filter charger cone shaped w/o box K&N makes a difference too($115 local shop --- the flat filter w/ 460 doesnt make enough of a difference for the cost), of course exaust (Max $300)(no Cat makes a little more, your better off sticking with a single 3" then spliting after the O2 since the O2 on the 460 can cop an attitude sometimes) Cut the cones out of the Hpipe in you intake duct work, the spot where the idler tube plugs in. An MSD ignition box 6A($179 from Summit), there is a cam ($200) Comp Cam Part #34-220-4 @.50 206 206 Lift .467 .467 Lobe Cen 112*, that works within your Speed density FI computer vacume parameters. Bump your Initial timing up, but you will have to run premium, this does the same thing as a chip for the most part(with the 460's Chips are not worth the money unless you really tailor them my .02). Also You can replace the Timing chain ($79 for a true roller)bringing the motor's valve timing up to top dead center w/ a 1970 429/460 timing chain.

Next you'll have to get into performance engine mods, i ported my heads installed larger valves 2.19I 1.76E(i think 1.76 i can't remember know, they are the CJ valves out of motorsport) and roller rockers, good power difference better flow ($500-1800), past these few mods you will have to change the electronics from Speed density to Mass air, this makes changing the cam to a .5 lift possible higher compression pistons can be installed also the mass air makes bigger injectors possible too. quite the combination also Mass air ($1000)make displcement changes possible.

Overall I thought of that 245HP motor as puting down maybe 325 HP it definately didnt feel like 375HP. Some people consider Exaust and Air Filters as giving added HP, i like to think of it as just freeing up what the factory restricted. Just my opinion though.


Write me I might be able to help, i tried alot of things with the 460 EFI and even did some unconventional things. Also most 460's from the factory only had one CAT with either the dual 2.5 inlet and single 3" out or single 3" in/out. The O2 is not effected by removing the Cat only is it ticked off when the system is split into true duals.


Good Luck
Dusty



Why Buy new when you can build and tailor it cheaper?
F-350 4x4 ext cab Short Bed Green Monster, it is now Sporting a 300HP 715lb/ft Dyno rated 5.9L 12v Cummins diesel w/ NV4500 5spd and custom NP205 ford T-case w/ rear spicer 1410 yoke, Converted to Sterling 10.5 gears w/3.55 gears using the 41 spline pinion and 1410 U-Joints, Power-Lok equipt Dana 60 front, 33's on 16x8" Outlaw II's. (Used to have)205000 miles, Mass air 460 w/ performance heads and a E40d to 5spd conversion and Doug Thorleys. Old EFI 460 @10 MPG to the 12 V @ 23.2 MPG @ 75 MPH and loving it.
My other toy is a '69 CJ-5 354 Hemi 4 spd 4.88's 32x12.50 MThompsons w/ power-lok 44 rear.

 

thanks for the good info,what I think I'm going to do is,add a 61mm throttle body,have the intake extrude honed,add the cam you mentioned,then take the truck that has a dyno(pauls high performance in mich)and have them burn me a chip.sound good?

 

Sounds like a decent plan.... but for the money i think you might try to reconsider a little. You might see yourself getting better power improvements with the K&N and the Tri-Y Headers or similar (Easy 30 HP and lots of Torque too). The Cam is a good improvement if you are rebuilding the motor. If you are rebuilding Do your heads like i did mine) it is only a mild change from stock, an RV grind and in the trucks i have installed it in provided better low end and maybe in the 10-15 HP difference. The Timing Chain was easier and nets a smaller improvement w/ the stock cam also.

The K&N air charger because the box is extremely restrictive for the 460's demands, and the Headers.... If you have ever pulled a Fuel Injected 460 manifold off you know how tight the exaust ports are and then they add the smog air injection tube and it cuts that space and flow by nearly a third. This is where your TBody would come in handy, only after you are able to get what is stuck in the motor out; once the system can efficiently suck itself clean then it will be able to draw more air. And in 150000 miles i had no leaks or warpage from the Doug Thorley headers.

The Throttle Body from what i have heard is worth 5-10 HP (correct me here i know little about the 61mm units) for the dollars. I have heard that they really benefit systems with high flow demands, higher compression or force induction. Like i said until the exaust is out no point in trying to get the engine to draw in more air.

I did run a chip for awhile with my speed density sytem, until i did my heads i saw little benefit from it. I was able to turn my distributor up, granted this is not as accurate but it did provide me with the tuning that i was seeking and for $300 less than what a custom shop here charged, i sold the chip because 300 bucks only grabbed me 6 HP difference when in/out at 10* advance on the Dyno. I usually ran 12-13* Initial advance with the chip out and that brought the HP up to about where the chip performed.


Dont want to shot your plans all up I just like letting people know what i had great success with and what didnt seem to benefit the system as well. Hope i didnt tick you off going through it like that.

Good Luck
Dusty



Why Buy new when you can build and tailor it cheaper?
F-350 4x4 ext cab Short Bed Green Monster, it is now Sporting a 300HP 715lb/ft Dyno rated 5.9L 12v Cummins diesel w/ NV4500 5spd and custom NP205 ford T-case w/ rear spicer 1410 yoke, Converted to Sterling 10.5 gears w/3.73 gears using the 41 spline pinion and 1410 U-Joints, Power-Lok equipt Dana 60 front, 33's on 16x8" Outlaw II's. (Used to have)205000 miles, Mass air 460 w/ performance heads and a E40d to 5spd conversion and Doug Thorleys. Old EFI 460 @10 MPG to the 12 V @ 23.2 MPG @ 75 MPH and loving it.
My other toy is a '69 CJ-5 354 Hemi 4 spd 4.88's 32x12.50 MThompsons w/ power-lok 44 rear.

 

Mrsmith, where are you located in mich? I am in Macomb and am looking for a place to have my rig Dyno'd too.

 

thanks for the input,I have a set of hedman brand headers on the truck now,these made quite a difference like you said.I had someone from 4wd unlimited mail me a dyno sheet showing 22 hp at the rear wheels with the bigger throttle body,the reason I was going with the custom chip was to get by the 4800 rpm cut-off,the chip they were going to make would eliminate that,do you know of a easier way?{I want to eliminate it for the stock class truck pulls I participate in during the summer,I need more like 5500 then the 4800}

 

the dyno shop I know of is in jackson,MICH,pauls high perfofmance is the name of the shop,thier big time ford guys.150.00 will buy you an hour of dynno time.

 

Who makes and sells a larger throttle body for the injected 460?
I've never seen one, and I've been looking...

Thanks.

 

bbk as well as edelbrock

the edelbrock TB is on www.edelbrock.com

 

Thanks...

The BBK throttle body they specify for my '96 460 says, "Does NOT fit vehicles with Mass Air/ Speed Density only 50 States Smog Legal".

I hate to sound dumb, but how do I know for sure if my F-250 uses mass air/ Speed density??

There's what I *think" is a mass air sensor right after the air cleaner box, round cast metal thing with a coarse screen inside, some wires across where air passes through and an electrical connector on the side. Am I right?

Wouldn't ALL '96 F-250s with a 460 be the same, then they'd ALL have a mass air sensor?

 

You are correct that metal sensor with four wires and the screen is your MAF sensor. If you have it your system uses 19# hr injectors, speed density uses 24# hr injectors, a chip and a recaliberated computer and your system will open the motor up. Biggesat problem is the MAF 460's in 96/97 have a built in sensing system that retarts the system some to manage emissions.



Why Buy new when you can build and tailor it cheaper?
F-350 4x4 ext cab Short Bed Green Monster, it is now Sporting a 300HP 715lb/ft Dyno rated 5.9L 12v Cummins diesel w/ NV4500 5spd and custom NP205 ford T-case w/ rear spicer 1410 yoke, Converted to Sterling 10.5 gears w/3.73 gears using the 41 spline pinion and 1410 U-Joints, Power-Lok equipt Dana 60 front, 33's on 16x8" Outlaw II's. (Used to have)205000 miles, Mass air 460 w/ performance heads and a E40d to 5spd conversion and Doug Thorleys. Old EFI 460 @10 MPG to the 12 V @ 23.2 MPG @ 75 MPH and loving it.
My other toy is a '69 CJ-5 354 Hemi 4 spd 4.88's 32x12.50 MThompsons w/ power-lok 44 rear.

 

dd, first, let me thank you for all the great postings you've made here. All have been helpful and informative.

I'm also a fairly new owner of my 96 F-250 460 so I've been reading every word with great interest. (I also own a 2000 F-150 4x4 and an '87 Ranger 2.9L I bought new, but them's another story)

My biggest gripe about the F-250 460 is not that it can't pull stumps out of the ground at slow speed, but that when we use it to haul heavy trailers up some long, steep grades (I'm in Colorado), it winds up, only pulls good at low RPMs, below 3000 and runs out of steam before the auto trans even upshifts. I used to have a Chev 396 that would pull stronger as you wound it up, the 460 is the opposite. The Ford has a real flat HP and torque curve.

I've done the usual stuff, the aftermaket air cleaner and advanced the distributor timing just up to the ping point on regular, then I backed it down a degree or two. Have a good 3" cat-back exhaust on it now, the cat itself is 3" in and out so I'm not going to mess with it.
Next month I'm going to lay out the $$ and install a set of those Thorley tri-Y headers- not cheap- around $700.

Beyond that, I think that's about all I can do with bolt-on stuff, unless you've got any more ideas. I'm reluctant to buy a chip for the thing, my thinking is that manually dialing in distributor advance like I did is going to do about the same thing as a $300 chip.
It looks like I can't go with an aftermarket throttle body since BBK says not for MAF vehicles. Edelbrock's doesn't say that- I need to ask them directly.

Thanks again for sharing your experience-

 

Thanks for the compliment, i just enjoy passing on what i have done so others dont have to go through some of the trials and errors i made. I am the same way with chips, the reason i mentioned it is for the emissions equiptment part of the MAF 460 computer and also for the larger injectors 24# if you sought to upgrade you will have to recaliberate.
My 460 was the same way with the torque curve, very flat with the factory cam. Part was helped with the porting job and the other with the Tri Y's they made significant improvements, it still liked to pull at 2200-3500 especially after the upgrades and the tranny swap. With my E40D the engine hated life below the 2800/3000 RPM point. We have similar altitude and passes here in Montana, not as high or steep as Colorado but a climb just the same
Sounds like you have already made some leaps and bounds for your 460. You'll love those headers, you might check ebay, some times they go much cheaper. I got mine as a bump and scratch set for about half price from a dealership. The timing chain is the only other upgrade i can recomend from experience, i dont know anything about the throttlebodys. I see what i can find out.


Keep it up
Dusty



Why Buy new when you can build and tailor it cheaper?
F-350 4x4 ext cab Short Bed Green Monster, it is now Sporting a 300HP 715lb/ft Dyno rated 5.9L 12v Cummins diesel w/ NV4500 5spd and custom NP205 ford T-case w/ rear spicer 1410 yoke, Converted to Sterling 10.5 gears w/3.73 gears using the 41 spline pinion and 1410 U-Joints, Power-Lok equipt Dana 60 front, 33's on 16x8" Outlaw II's. (Used to have)205000 miles, Mass air 460 w/ performance heads and a E40d to 5spd conversion and Doug Thorleys. Old EFI 460 @10 MPG to the 12 V @ 23.2 MPG @ 75 MPH and loving it.
My other toy is a '69 CJ-5 354 Hemi 4 spd 4.88's 32x12.50 MThompsons w/ power-lok 44 rear.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-Mar-02 AT 03:19 PM (EST)]

My other toy is a '69 CJ-5 354 Hemi 4 spd 4.88's 32x12.50 MThompsons w/ power-lok 44 rear.
=====

Hey Dustin, great rig. I thought I was the only one that when in for the "Different" POWER.

I have a 73CJ5 with a Chev 409 W-block, 700R4 overdrive Trans, Dana 300 transfer, 488's, locked on both ends, R-Lock Right, Fnt-PowerLoc,4Wh disc brakes, 33" BuckShots. Absolutely love it. Of all the mods the 4Wh disc brakes is the BEST!!! It will stop!!! Anywhere, anytime, STRAIGHT!!! If you haven't done it, Do it, you'll love it too.

Sorry for going off topic on ya mrsmith.