Repairs per 100 units isn't indicative of anything, like I have said before, if you repair a window switch on 40 Fords and you replace the tranny on 39 Dodges, then it's going to say that the Dodge has a lower % of problems per 100 units. I'd like to see an indication of how many problems and WHAT problems the trucks are having per 100 units before you could use this method to clearly define who has the better quality.

 

That's really a good point (hadn't thought about that anyway). I guess I look at it from the perspective that quality overall has come so far in the last few decades in the industry, it's pretty darned hard to buy a bad anything anymore. What I think this thread is really focused on is durability, and that's really a separate issue from quality.

The older Dodges rattled, squeaked, and shook from day one, but the powertrains were rock solid. Late 70's/early 80's Fords and Chevy's had their fair share of paint problems, but look how many are still on the road. I doubt my '93 F150 would have made the top of anyone's quality survey that year, but at 190K miles it feels broken in, not worn out.

 

Couldn't disagree more... all one has to do is check out the TSBs and recalls of newer vehicles to see that POOR quality/durability is ALIVE and WELL

I also believe quality and durability are irrefutibly (sp?) linked - poor quality is going to lead to dismal durability...In other words - if the quality is lacking from the start, the product will not last (poor durability). Durability is achieved through quality - whether it be quality of materials or quality of design...actually quality of both must be considered - quality materials used in a poor design will result in a defective product, whereas the opposite is also true - poor materials in a great design will also yield dismal results.

When addressing different subsystems - it is possible to have a very reliable drivetrain yet have peeling paint, rusting sheetmetal. IMHO, just having a durable drivetrain is not enough - I want the complete package - maybe I'll never be satisfied ...my expectations are probably just too high. New vehicles cost WAY too much nowadays for buyers to be satisfied with an excellent drivetrain yet have paint peeling or other problems.

I'm still searching for the (overall) "perfect vehicle"...

 

That takes us right back to the JD powers 3-year ownership survey. You did bring up a key point though- buyer expectations. If you insisted on the highest quality materials and the best design possible, what would you be willing to pay for it? GM and Ford have struggled with this for years- both manufacturers are perfectly capable of building far better cars and trucks than they do. At some point, compromises enter into a design of mass-marketed vehicles to maintain some semblance of affordability- that's as true of Toyota as it is of Ford or Chevrolet. I suspect Toyota may strike a better balance here, but all high-volume manufacturers have to deal with this issue.

 

Why SHOULDN'T we (as consumers) insist on the highest quality materials and the best design possible??? God knows we're paying for it!

It's the fact that we settle for junk and continue to buy it that the automakers are still in business and continue to produce it. If we stop buying junk, the junkmakers will go out of business. "the cream will rise to the top!"

The current economy is a perfect example of what the automakers will do when the sales slow down... a few years ago we wouldn't have seen the "up to $5500 back" or "0% financing" that we're seeing today.

If the automakers can afford to slash prices when times are bad, why can't they sell their products at lower prices to begin with? Maybe more would be bought and the economy would be fueled naturally, if they weren't asking such ridiculous prices for junk!

 

Id have to agree with you 78. These rebates are to make make people think they are getting a bargain. All these vehicles are still costly. Who owns a truck anymore. Does anybody see a title anymore. Its all payments. So much a month for life. Trouble is they all burn this fuel thats like gold anymore. This fuel is breaking the country.

 

I was kinda hoping that they'd build 1 that ran on firewood.

 

How about a mix of water and gas. Half and half. After all these years were still running on petroleum. I got to think theres another answer out there. The oil conglamerates dont want us to know about it.

 

I agree 100%, thats why they own all the rights to electricity/hydrogen/solar powered vehicles, doesnt really bother me though, where i live we dont even have emissions laws.

 

JD does break it down. To where the problems are found on specific vehicles. It was kind of funny to me. I read it. They had a 1 to 5 rating. Dodge and Ford had identical ratings last time I looked. Was a real suprise. Brakes and trannies for both. It was a few years back.

Another place to look for catastrophic problems. Is the nhtsa site. Its very specific by model. Some of these consumer guides really break it down. Can tell you which years of certain models had specific problems. A consumer that does his/her homework is light years ahead. Speaking of which. I recommend a couple of books. How not to get taken every time and Buying a car for dummies. Its 50 bucks that will save you, maybe, tens of thousands.

I cross referenced price, reliability/durability and fuel economy and came up with the corolla. It is a very sound purchase. Im going to buy one next spring.

Another anecdote. Of consumers. Only about 15% do there homework on a new car purchase. 50% do a little bit of looking around. There are the 30 something percent that just go to one dealer and stick with it but dont do too badly. Then there is the last 2%. That 2% pays sticker plus additional dealer markup and smiles on the way out the door. The auto industry makes more money on the 2% than the other 98%.

 

I think we do- that would explain the sales strength of the Camry and the Accord in the passenger car market.

 

Whoa- there's a few things going on there at once in that post.

1. some customers (and darned if I know the percentage) do actually do their research and try to make a pick based on objective analysis. They are in the extreme minority. The fact of the matter is most folks treat an automobile/truck purchase as a highly charged emotional event. Objective thinking and logic play a small part of the purchase decision.

2. Price is a relative thing. The overwhelming majority of car deals go something like this: "I'm trading in my '02 Sled out there, I owe $$$$$, and I've got $$$$ to put down. If you can keep the payments at $$$, I'll buy it." That is the car biz- not rebates, not 0%, not discounts, etc. All the other stuff is just backround noise to get to those three key items: trade-in, down payment, and monthly payments.

The hardest customer to make a profit on (and the one who almost always gets the best deal) is the one waving his/her checkbook without a trade.

 

No trade. No monthly payment concerns. Not willing to pay too much. Ive got my last three off the dealers lot at low blue book. Its like pulling teeth. Im very straightforward. Give me what I want and we can close the deal in under an hour. You can move on to your next fleecing and we are both happy.

There are a million other vehicles just like the one you are looking at. Its your money. If you wont pay that much. They dont make the sale. The true schmucks are the consumers who are only worried about the payments. If the payments are what you want but your on a seven year note. Your gonna be upside down, bbaaadddd. If your thinking about trading while your upside down. Your insane.

Ive had to park a car to let the years catch up with the miles so I could pay it down and sell it for a good price. It sat so long the tires went square on me. Guess Ill put it on body jacks next time. Live and learn.

Trading is never a good deal anyways. I use the park and sells. Usually get at least an extra 2 grand over what I woulda got for tradein. I can then use that 2 grand towards my next purchase.

 

You need to make an extra two grand, because if you trade something in, sales tax is computed on the difference and not of the sales price of the new vehicle. If the private party book is less than 2K over what dealers are offering me, I go ahead and trade it in.

 

Unfortunately, though, that describes just about everybody anymore. Cash transactions were less than 5% before the 0% hoopla came out. Fact is, most working folks can't afford to lay out the $$$'s without some kind of finance plan.

Depends- "never say never".(grin) I've seen situations with a very late model, high dollar trade-in where trading was quite appropriate. Remember, most used car buyers (especially late model used car buyers) need some sort of financing and have a trade-in. It's rare a private party can deal with that. More importantly, it's rare to find someone that has the time to work thorugh it all. If you can retail your own trade, it's great- not everyone can.