OK First,please keep it clean,children read this!

I did it again,made a comment,which by the way made me guilty of highjacking somebody elses post.And man did this thread ever take a turn downhill fast.I made a comment about Handguns,Maybe I should have phrased what I meant a little different,so here it goes.

The advantage of concealment,kids killing kids,street gangs,slain Police officers,are some of my strongest points for the argument that as an advanced society we would be better off without them.

First of all relax,It aint gone happen,not in our lifetime,and my ojective was not and never will be to trample on ANYBODY`S right to arm themselves.Simply put,, just to stretch the barrel length.

Think about it,
The cop walking up to a car at night,sure would see a barrel coming out the window,and have a second or two more reaction
time,vital time.
The kid walking down the street,sees a rival at the end of the street with a longgun,he is not going to be so willing to go down there and pick a fight,yup your right no,he is going to go home and get his.But now just about any cop I know could spot a guy with a longgun a mile away,,,
The store owner sees a guy coming in with two foot bulge in his pants or a raincoat and it aint raining,reaction time,vital time.
And by the way the store owner knows john holmes is dead.
As far as research,grew up in detroit,little bro is buried on the outskirts,so I get to visit there a couple times a year!IT AINT GETTING ANY BETTER!!!!Sorry just my .02

 

ON a lighter note;
My son asked me who john holmes was and I told him he was just some famous actor who always carried a two foot gun in his pants.

 

What would stop someone from sawing it off??

 

Say,10years manditory,no plea bargains,no smooth talkin lawyers to get it reduced.to be in possesion of a weapon altered in order to be concealable 10yrs,2cnd offense 25yrs.

 

I agree with King Triton. Yeh I know this country was founded on the "right to bear arms" and I know that even if legislated, there will be black market and ways around the law, but if hand guns were more difficult to get it would be less likely that street gangs and high school kids, etc. would have access to them when they want to go on a shooting spree. We are supposedly the most advanced civilization in the world. Let's act like it! My $.02.

 

Triton,
regarding your proposal for punishing those who would alter a legally mandated minumim barrell length handgun; Why not say that RIGHT NOW for all the scenarios, cases, situations, etc. you already cite where the perpitrator is in violation of existing law?
I understand your objective. I just adamantly disagree w/ the method prefered in an attempt to get there.
It is my belief (and I too have done MUCH research over the years) that the 2nd A. is an individual right, not a collective right. But that belief aside, I don't think the answer to (handgun) crimes lies in the gun.
It is a societal problem and an individual problem. It is a problem with our judicial system and our values. The answers are to be found there. Not in the gun.
In addition, I don't belief anybody -or very few- will ever change their thoughts on this issue based on "facts".

One side can quote numbers about how many "died due to handguns" and the other side will quote crime statistics showing direct correlation to reduction in crime in areas where CC permits were approved and issued.

So, we are left to discuss/debate from the standpoint of perspective and ideology.

But Triton, on a serious note, how does this argument differ from yours:

"The problems of concealment, kids killing kids, street gangs, slain Police officers, are some of my strongest points for the argument that as an advanced society we would be better off"
if cocaine and heroin were banned.

Why can't we solve the problems with drugs by banning the ownership and/or possession of drugs?

 

> The cop walking up to a car at night,sure would see a barrel
> coming out the window,and have a second or two
> more reaction

If a car jacker with a crow bar is smashing your car window in at a stop light or a rapist is grabbing your daughter out of her car, isn't a small concealed weapon the best choice for preserving life and liberty in hand to hand combat?

We can not keep illegal immigrants, illegal automatic AK-47s, or terrorists out of our country, what way is there to keep guns with short barrels out. Gangs made zip guns before handguns got so cheap and prisioners have even made them in their cells.

Massachusetts has one of the most restrictive hand gun laws around, where I use to live. Know what happens, hardly anyone does time for illegal possession because they throw them away after the crime or before they are caught. So, only the criminals that can barely pee out of their own zipper are in possession.

You have every right to surprise a wrong doer that is seeking to take your life or liberty with six rounds of lead. In the UK where small weapons are banned, street crime is unchecked and the solution has been cameras on every corner. Does not sound like more liberty to me and crime is still unchecked.

A woman has every right to keep a small concealed weapon in her pocket, she has every right to walk the worse neighborhood at night, and if someone tries to rob her or rape her to fire it off inside her jacket pocket without warning when a knife or weapon appears or when someone tries to put their hands on her.

People like my mother (sharp shooter with a .22 and 12 gauge) and Senator John Glen took their rifles to school for their shooting clulbs all the time and never thought of killing someone else.

People want to take prayer out of schools, God out of everything, promote abortion, promote porno, do away with the death sentence for 1st degree murder, allow filth on TV, have both parents working with noone home to watch the kids after school, allow filth on the radio, allow unchecked gore and violence on TV, especially during kids shows or prime time.

Then when children grow up without the values that made our nation great and hold in little esteem their life and those of others, poeple think we need more laws.

Society is reaping what it sowed, so maybe it is time to stop sowing weeds, instead of looking for more laws to change our immorality, that take away our liberties.

 

Great reply rebocardo! There was a retired highway patrolman in my town that answered a knock on his door. A wacked out woman on drugs started to stab him with a knife. He died trying to get to his bedroom where he kept his pistol. I decided that I will not end up that way when I get older. Some punk pulls out a knife and says "give me your wallet". You pull out a .45 and say "what".

 

To any of you who think that handguns should be outlawed I suggest looking into what Scotland is trying to do with knives.

Bad people will always be bad people. They will find a way to push on with their criminal activities regardless of what weapons they use. Eliminating hand guns will not make life any harder for criminals, it will only make defense that much harder for citizens.

Many will say that high crime areas are safer due to gun laws (DC, Kalifornia, etc.) but studies suggest that the crime rates are more likely higher because of these laws. If a thief wants to hold up a 7-Eleven in Chicago he doesn't have to worry about someone standing up to him. Whether he takes a handgun, shotgun or rifle in there he knows that no one else has a gun in that store. Try that here in Spokane where a large number of citizens carry handguns with them everywhere they go. Criminals are in fear of citizens with handguns because they don't know who and where they are.

I guess we'll always have a difference of opinion but if you want to get rid of handguns you better follow with banning baseball bats, tire irons, pocket knives, etc.

 

I wouldn't say anything Mike, I'd just shoot 'em. I wouldn't carry for intimidation, if oyu gotta pull, its cause you think your life is in danger, and you better shoot first.

I totally disagree with anyone that thinks we need more laws, more restrictions, more rules. Simple firearm safety, and responsibility, and you take problems out of the equation.

 

If we are the most advanced civilization in the world, why don't we show our law abiding citizens the utmost respect, by taking our criminals OFF the street? The answer to WHY, is simple. Too many of our lawmakers, our judges, lawyers, and supposedly advanced people take the view of punishing the tool, not the fool. Why would any self respecting criminal stop carrying a handgun, or any weapon for that matter when the courts continue to deal out lame sentences, and we continue to accept lame sentencing?

Some may think I should be very anti-gun as my brother was murdered a little over 2 years ago with a handgun. Where I have extreme feelings is in sentencing these murderers to the death penalty. It is a deterrent, as no one has ever been a repeat criminal after their death sentence was carried out.

Punish the criminal, not the vast majority of gun owners that are law abiding, respectable citizens. That is how I perceive any 'advanced' society would act.

One add-on piece of advice. I highly recommend everyone, including those of you opposed to private citizen handgun ownership, to take the NRA's Personal Protection Course. It not teaches the basic fundamentals of personal protection, it also brings to light a lot of issues one must deal with if you choose to use deadly force to protect yourself, as well as heightens your awareness of every day risks from criminals.

 

I am only going to reply to this thread once as I have debated with Triton on this issue before. Like I said before, if you take away the right to bear arms, you are only taking it away from the law abiding citizen that has gone through state and federal backround checks to get it. If you legaly own a handgun, that means you have no criminal record, and are considered an upstanding citizen by the FBI and state (or they wouldn't approve you) So now, you just took all the handguns away from the GOOD GUYS, and all the BAD GUYS are still gonna keep theres and buy more on the black market. Hmmmm, seems pretty idiotic to me!

 

What you probably haven't heard about on mainstream media are the well over 1 million violent crimes that are averted every year in this country by honest, law abiding, armed citizens. I seem to remember the last estimate being 1.7 million but feel free to investigate it for yourself. The problem we have is that the media almost never reports things like this; they prefer to report on the negative aspect of firearms in an effort to sway public opinion.

On edit: Rebocardo, excellent post .

 

Not reading the whole post,and relying on that same old lame copout if you take guns away from the good,now thats idiotic,
Lets see,doing my research here in michigan,where 2 years ago they started easing up on handgun restrictions, the rate of burglaries has gone up a large amount,hmmm,do you think they are breaking in to steal the peanut butter,no,more handguns on the street,just what we need,and the guy dumb enough to go into detroit armed,dumb enough to try and defend himself against some street punk,well now we have one dead street punk and one dead pipedreamer and one more handgun in the hands of that streetpunks homies,now to do some research on CT and see if they even have a crimerate.

Can you say CONCEALED WEAPON !

 

Waaaaiiiiit a minute! Did I hear this right? "dumb enough to try and defend himself against some street punk" Since when did self defense become a "dumb" idea? Am I supposed to grab my ankles and break out the vaseline when I feel my safety and well being are at stake? Essentially what you're saying is if no person had handguns then we'd all be robbed peacefully.

Oh, okay so you do get the idea . . . for a minute there I thought the whole point of handguns was going right over your head.

Tell ya what. Next time someone pulls a knife on you just do what they say and be glad it's not a handgun.

Something to remember here. Personal possesions are one thing. Money can be replaced, cars, stereos, etc. It's easy to say "just go with it, let them take what they want and no-one will get hurt". Now what do you do when you encounter the scum who want to rape your wife, or kidnap your children? There are some things you can't replace.