You guys should be thankful that your constitution allows you to bear arms. We in Canada can only possess "registered" long arms and pistols with a barrel length greater then 5" (restricted and registered). Soon, we'll be like England; no pistols, semi auto long arms and the crime rate (gun) will rise. (When was the last time you saw a criminal go to the cop shop to register?). My theory on concealed carry is, Joe criminal may thing twice before robbing someone or somewhere, because he don't know who's carrying.

p.s. to King Triton: my ol lady( a soccer mom) can shoot 489 on a 500 rapid fire with a .45 ACP at 25 yards (mind you she's not you average suburban soccer mom-she's ex infantry/ ex farm girl). But it's also scary to see some cops qualify on their semi-annual testing( they only shoot twice a year with no practice in between). {I shoot competitive pistol and a range officer, where the county cops qualify}

 

We have to quit blaming the inaminate object.
People are the problem. We need protection from the people, not the inaminate object.

 

I live in MI too, work in Dearborn, live near Ann Arbor. I would like to see where you get the information that says burglary has risen since the change to a shall-issue CPL. Everything that I have read, outside of the bloated overdramatic handwringing that was printed just prior to the passing of the bill, has been the exact opposite. Here's a link to the 2003 licensure summary
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CC...rt_75775_7.pdf

In it, you will find about 15,000 CPL's were issued last year alone, and the crimes commited by county. I just ran through it quickly, and the biggest segment of crimes I could find were DWI, DUI, disorderly person, or A&B. There were brandishing and commiting a felony hits too, but were the minority. Maybe we are trying to ban the wrong thing here. Maybe the problem is alcohol. I say we ban all liquor, beer, wine, spirits, etc. That will lower crime won't it. Oh, wait, didn't we try that before? Yeah, something about prohibition comes to mind. Around the 1920's wasn't it? How'd that work out?

Seems that caused even more crime because of bootlegging, shootings over bootlegging territories, dirty cops in on the bootlegging, stuff like that. Heck, we even had one of the worst gangs around. Heard of the Purple Gang?
One of the few gangs that were successful in holding off Al Capone in territory wars. This state used to be cut down the middle, at M27. East was all Purple, west was Capone's. They would drive trucks full of whiskey from Canada across the Detroit River. What makes you think banning handguns wouldn't create the same situation, actually just worsen what is already there. Now you'll have reguler joe's shoppin the black market as well, to get that hot roscoe to keep Johnny Badguy out of his wife's jewelry cabinet. All these bans do is create more felons, when they shouldn't be felons to begin with.

If guns would have been banned from the start, do you think that this country would still be called the United Sates of America? Probably not. It would be something more like the British Commonwealth of America, or maybe French Commonwealth. Who knows. Colonists had guns, NEEDED guns just to sustain everyday life. How far would they have gotten here in the New World without a pistol or musket? Have we really advanced as a society? What are you basing that on? Sure we have a whole heck of a lot more technology than the settlers, but are we as a people more advanced? Not really. There were rapings, beatings, burglary, drunkards, murderers then as now. Gangs, turf wars, assasinations, corruption, etc. How have we really advanced? If you ask me, we've declined as a society since before I was born. People have no concience, no morals. No respect for their fellow Americans. It's always about two things now, when it comes to major crime: sex or money. Go back to the earliest crimes, and it never changes. Sex or Money, usually both. Criminals commit crimes because they have no respect for others' property or rights. They want that car, that watch, that coat, those shoes, because they don't have the money to buy it or someone they know does, and will pay them to get it for them. A majority of murders are over love, more like lust, for someone else. Another gets in the way of that lust, he/she must be removed from the equation. Best way is for them to die. Quickest way to that is murder. Voila! The tool used in the crime is not the creator of evil, is is the facilitator. Take away one vector, the resourceful criminal finds another. No guns around? Fine, get a knife. Better yet a sword, they're longer, and kill faster than a knife. Now I think Scotland is going to ban all swords. So, they'll use knivs, or bats, or pipes, cast iron pans, a 2X4, tire iron, hammer, screwdriver, it won't matter. Thiefs are Thiefs, Murderers are Murderers. It just won't matter what you ban, they'll find something else to use. What then? Ban all hands? They'd use their feet. Whenever you allow the government to take away the right to self preservation and protection, wether in whole up front or incrimentally, the only one you will successfully disarm is you, your wife, your kids, your grandchildren, their kids, and on and on and on. How would it make you feel to know that the feel good law you helped pass way back when helped to murder your first son, daughter, or grandchild. These laws will not affect us, it will drastically alter the futures of our offspring. I for one will do all that I can to protect my sons now, and 75 years from now, and I pray to God that they see fit to do the same for their sons and grandsons.

I'll step down from my soapbox now, sorry to be so long winded.

brent

 

Well, I'll be damned, (good song BTW for you AC/DC fans ) somebody finally figured it out.

* I see that this got moved to the Off Topic forum, so I am stepping out, if anyone has any direct questions for me, feel free to email me. I refuse to post in the OT lounge.

 

Don't want to cause too much trouble here, but do the mods think we should transport this thread to "off-topic"? It's a contraversial subject no matter how you look at it and I have a feeling this thread is nowhere near done.

 

Bowser
well said,and again this keeps turning into banning firearms,I never said that,I said the hand gun should be eliminated because of concealment .And I went to michigan.gov statistics for the info you are talking about

 

Newspapers are liberal. If you get hit by a slingshot you’ll read about the ‘deadly automatic assault slingshot’ that has been terrorizing the country size for decades. Ever hear about the guy that was pegged by the crossbow during a traffic dispute? It was on one of those cops shows, the man died.

And as for my incoherent rambling, seems to me you just don’t like the facts and would rather plug your ears and sing in the corner. Fine by me, but before you go saying how meaningless I am being ‘some guy’ on the internet you might want to take a look at who started this topic to discuss. You want to keep it clean, I’m trying to keep it clean. I gave you the facts, I gave you a site that would say exactly what I was saying…sited sources and all. And again I ask, have you even CHECKED http://www.gunfacts.info yet?

As for my ‘protected environment’, you’re right…I’m exempt from all paranoia and superstition surrounding guns. I don’t need to open a Kevlar umbrella during New Years or hit the dirt every time I hear a car backfire. My protected environment is in what I know, the sky isn’t falling, the earth isn’t flat, and the only problem with guns are they’re so discriminated.

 

Since it is my individual right and not yours to take away from me I will continue to use it since I fought to keep it. As an idea, how about we do a research test. All the anti-gun households put up a sign in the front yard of their house proudly stating their position for all to see(including criminals). "NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE! Lets see who gets robbed,raped or murdered first.

 

Funny how nobody debates success.

I did forget to mention in my previous post the numbers quoted are based on simply "weapon display"; no shots ever were fired. Criminals prefer to find victims that are easy prey and defenseless ones seem to do just fine. I would like to humbly suggest that instead of visiting/focusing/seeking out negative, anti-gun websites, you visit the other end of the spectrum to gain more information and wisdom. I would also suggest avoiding websites ending with .gov; these frequently have an objective/agenda of "reprogramming" once normal people to think in a manner of conformity and submission.

I enjoyed and ROFLMAO at Tom Brokaw some time back when he was yacking about concealed weapon permits being issued to people in this country. In his exact words, "the only state in this country that does not require a person to have a concealed weapons permit is Vermont, and yet for some unexplainable reason the incident rate of violent crime is far below the national average". Geeeee, what was he smoking that day? The reason is only too obvious. Go figure..................

 

Um. Dude. More people die due to cars each year than due to guns. Let's think about priorities here. When you've succssfully banned cars, then come talk to me about banning guns.

If you want to take away the ability of criminals to carry concealed weapons, go for it. Best of luck. But while you're about it, don't infringe upon my right to defend myself and my family.

 

King Triton there is an open carry statue here in MI. If everyone were to wear a hogleg in a side holster would that be OK? You can do that now if you want, you just won't be able to go many places I just don't see how eliminating handguns is going to change anything. The whole idea of having handguns is for the extra concealment they provide for everyone, not just gangbangers.

Yes it always turns into banning firearms, because that is exactly what groups like Handgun Control, INC. is working towards. Because someone else in their infinte "wisdom" has decided that no handguns=less crime. How many times does a study have to be ran to show that gun bans just don't work. It doesn't matter if the ban is for handguns, Saturday Night Specials, your Winchester lever action, my 30'06 deer rifle, or Grandpa's old shotgun. Tooltimegrunt followed this bliss-ninny line of thinking, just change the word handgun for SUV or P/U. Change concealment to traffic accident killers. It's the same flawed logic. A gun, no matter if it's a pistol or a shotgun, is an inanimate, non-confrontational object. So is a truck. Both require operation by a user. Neither can just get up and kill someone. The idea that handguns should be banned because you can hide one is just as absurd to me as banning a V8 engine because it's too big and noboby really needs one, especially all the old ones because they might not be safe to use, or have around. They might just go off, at any moment, hurting all these innocent bystanders. Kids shouldn't have one either, they'll just hurt/kill themselves, or soneone else. If we can just get rid of these few, then all will be safer for it. Everything is OK, until then the I-6 or the regular deer rifle becomes the next target of opportunity. Then shotguns and target rifles and BB guns, and any engine over 2.0L. If you really want one, you will have to prove that you actually have a need for one(See how this can work with anything, not just handguns?). You'll have to fill out 20 forms in triplicate, submit to multiple background, pshychological, drug, and hair/eye/skin color tests, only to have the "board of propriety for the betterment of society" tell you that you don't have a valid reason to own one, your petition for use has been denied, and your name will be added to "the list" for asking. If we give these people an inch, they'll end up taking 10 miles. Look at how they already attack the small groups of recreationists. Snowmobiling lately is under seriously bogus attack, and has been the center of numerous court battles. In case you missed it, Clinton's Roadless Initiative would have closed all national forest land to motorized travel, with the exception of approved coaches on paved roads only. This has been going on for a couple years. The underhandedness of the detractors has shown exactly how far they will go to get what they want. Biased reports on use, false studies showing 2 stroke motor emissions, and a whole lot of emotional pomp and circumstance. None of which is related to how sleds are made and used today. The only thing they can legitimately complain about is that they are kinda loud, and may cause an avalanche out in the mountains. The actual environmental impact of the total amount of snowmobiles operated in Yellowstone national park does not even begin to compare to the damage caused by the summer visitors in tour busses, RV's and reguler passenger vehicles. If sleds can be banned, then it won't be long till they decide that busses and RV's are the next bad guy. Then passenger vehicles. I will guarantee it. The same approach will be applied to guns, as well as our beloved internal combustion engine.

 

I have a book written in England in 1954. It has a piece about needing a firearms license to buy a black powder pistol or rifle. There is a monument in front of the UN building with a pistol having the barrel twisted into a knot. There is a world wide movement to eliminate guns in the hands of private citizens. Gun control has killed more people then all the bad guys put together.

 

Okay, who has the list of people killed by citizens with concealed carry permits? Come on now. All you guys against handguns surely have done your homework. Its not like you have an uneducated opninion. Please, share with the rest of us.
Heres some information for my educated opinion. Keep the U.S. Consitution alive.
http://www.deepwaterweb.com/gunstudy.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt
http://www.rkba.org/research/bjs/handgun-crime-victims
http://www.handguncontrol.net/
http://www.thealo.com/malo/study.html
http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/...7561%2C00.html
http://www.aware.org/crimes.shtml

Now I'm for gun control, but not outlawing weapons. Yes, the Triggerlock campaign is a god send. Saved hundreds of lives. Yes, background checks are great. I appreciate it.
But punishing a law abiding citizen for a criminals actions is just true ignorance and lack of respect for the founding fathers of the united States of America.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_1_29.gif' border=0></a>

 

What would you rather have pointed at you? A cheap 9mm auto pistol or a Mossberg 12 ga from Wal Mart? I'd rather the cheap 9mm.. the punk might miss.. chances are he isnt gonna miss with a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck! Banning handguns still leaves them in the hands of the bad guys. All they are going to do is cut off the barrels of a long gun to make em easier to hide anyway. And even if you banned all guns and somehow got them all off the streets, you'd still have violent crimes commited with weapons of some sort. So what are ya gonna do? Ban everything?? NO! You make damn sure you punish the criminal! Send his/her a** to jail for a very long time!

 

More people die in car wrecks than from firearms, whether they be pistols, rifles, shotguns,single shot, semiauto, full auto, or whatever. Trampeling Americans RIGHTS in the name of "public safety" is simply a method of giving the govt. more control over the populace, NOTHING MORE. I feel much more comfortable protecting myself than having to rely on incompetent politicians and police to do it for me. Laws and police do not prevent crime, ever. Police are here to apprehend crimminals after they have broken the law, when its too late! Ill just keep ALL of my firearms and take my chances.