460 EFI Pinging/Over Advancing Issues
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,970
Likes: 595
From: Greater Austin, Texas
I agree with the 2nd post in the thread describing the octane rod. How is that any different than turning the distributor? Changing the octane rod changes the position of the pickup coil relative to the reluctor - how is this any different than what a vacuum advance does? Moving the pickup coil inside the distributor while the body of the distributor remains static, or, moving the body of the distributor while the pickup coil remains static inside the distributor is the very same thing - it changes the position of the pickup coil relative to the reluctor.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,259
Likes: 743
From: Maryland
I read the article on octane bars. It looks like an L bracket with holes in it. I didn't see mention of another plug similar to the spout connector. Where would it be on an '88 5.0? J Moron
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,259
Likes: 743
From: Maryland
I agree with the 2nd post in the thread describing the octane rod. How is that any different than turning the distributor? Changing the octane rod changes the position of the pickup coil relative to the reluctor - how is this any different than what a vacuum advance does? Moving the pickup coil inside the distributor while the body of the distributor remains static, or, moving the body of the distributor while the pickup coil remains static inside the distributor is the very same thing - it changes the position of the pickup coil relative to the reluctor.
Moving the hall effect sensor, via the octane rod, changes it's relationship to the shutter wheel, which is fixed to the distributor shaft, and compensates for the slight affect that the seating of the distributor gear has on the position of the rotor button.
Simple really... Ha ha
So the relationship of the distributor shaft to the hall effect sensor changes, without moving the distributor shaft or the shutter wheel.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2021
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I should have said more to the why but that has been explained since then, so apologies for the snippyness lol
IF you were using Duraspark II or something and you went carb or something like that, it would make sense.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 5,221
Likes: 805
This is not what you have tho, because those distributors had a rod inside them, this is what you read about :
Purpose of octane adjust shorting bar is to provide optimum spark advance for fuel used. If engine detonates (spark knock), remove octane shorting bar. This retards spark advance about 3-4 degrees. If engine continues to detonate, use fuel with a higher octane rating.
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,970
Likes: 595
From: Greater Austin, Texas
Purpose of octane adjust shorting bar is to provide optimum spark advance for fuel used. If engine detonates (spark knock), remove octane shorting bar. This retards spark advance about 3-4 degrees. If engine continues to detonate, use fuel with a higher octane rating.
Can you tell me in what manual and what page you found this information?
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 5,221
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i did not find it in a ford service manual,i found it on mitchell which sources a lot from factory but not all of it is presented the same way
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,549
Likes: 2,668
From: Near Salt Lake City
You do not need to remove the distributor to replace an octane rod
You just remove the 7/32 screw, and the rod will pivot up and off of the stator
Then you just pull the octane rod out through the slot
There were a few recalls over the years where we had to change those octane rods
Ford used to play with those octane rods and PCV valves for altitude compensation and I/M compliance
You just remove the 7/32 screw, and the rod will pivot up and off of the stator
Then you just pull the octane rod out through the slot
There were a few recalls over the years where we had to change those octane rods
Ford used to play with those octane rods and PCV valves for altitude compensation and I/M compliance
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Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,259
Likes: 743
From: Maryland
You do not need to remove the distributor to replace an octane rod
You just remove the 7/32 screw, and the rod will pivot up and off of the stator
Then you just pull the octane rod out through the slot
There were a few recalls over the years where we had to change those octane rods
Ford used to play with those octane rods and PCV valves for altitude compensation and I/M compliance
You just remove the 7/32 screw, and the rod will pivot up and off of the stator
Then you just pull the octane rod out through the slot
There were a few recalls over the years where we had to change those octane rods
Ford used to play with those octane rods and PCV valves for altitude compensation and I/M compliance
Does the ECM change timing on start up, for a hot engine, compared to a cold engine?
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,549
Likes: 2,668
From: Near Salt Lake City
On initial start I believe the processor is out of the loop, until the engine starts
But, yes, that rod and its length determine stator position and consequently the timing
I believe that on startup, hot or cold, the processor just uses data tables to determine and set timing
Once it's running the computer takes over, hot or cold
I mentioned the drink of water and the octane rod just to get you all thinking
However
If it pings like hell on pump gas? I would start by giving it a drink of water shortly after verifying the base timing of 10 BTDC
Then proceed on to the octane rod modification or shorting bar / plug removal
But, yes, that rod and its length determine stator position and consequently the timing
I believe that on startup, hot or cold, the processor just uses data tables to determine and set timing
Once it's running the computer takes over, hot or cold
I mentioned the drink of water and the octane rod just to get you all thinking
However
If it pings like hell on pump gas? I would start by giving it a drink of water shortly after verifying the base timing of 10 BTDC
Then proceed on to the octane rod modification or shorting bar / plug removal
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,970
Likes: 595
From: Greater Austin, Texas
OK all I can say to the naysayers is that I have been driving this truck for ~3 months now with initial timing on 0 TDC and it runs exactly the same as it always has except it doesn't ping anymore. It runs the same water temp, it even gets the same gas mileage. To me this backs up my claim that initial timing only affects a) timing on startup and b) total timing and I say 48 deg total is way too much for this motor. Now, as winter comes on, I may find it harder to start when cold, but so far, that has not been the case. I wanted to drop total timing 10 deg, and I got that and it didn't mess anything else up, and it was free. I am not seeing the downside here, which BTW none of you who told me I was stupid bothered to explain what that would be.
So, my final word on this - if you have a 460 that pings and you have tried all the other stuff, try backing the initial timing off and see what happens. It's really easy to do, doesn't cost anything, and it's easy to put back if you don't like it.
So, my final word on this - if you have a 460 that pings and you have tried all the other stuff, try backing the initial timing off and see what happens. It's really easy to do, doesn't cost anything, and it's easy to put back if you don't like it.
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,856
Likes: 1,037
Did you use a timing light? If you did, is it one of those you can change the flash? If it was at 10degrees, and you adjusted it, then your base timing would have really been 20 degrees.
It really does not matter as long as it's fixed. Thanks for the follow up.
It really does not matter as long as it's fixed. Thanks for the follow up.
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,970
Likes: 595
From: Greater Austin, Texas
Did you use a timing light? If you did, is it one of those you can change the flash?
Of course I did. Mine is electronic and resets the offset to 0 every time you hook it to the battery.
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,856
Likes: 1,037
The problem is fixed but the answer to the problem is suspect. You backed off the timing 10 degrees from stock. That is odd and I certainly would question the timing light or if the crank pulley has rotated. Of course, this would take some time and if your truck is 'fixed' why screw with it more?