Nothing separates us from the animals but arrogance.

 

What is a fact? What constitutes conformity?

It seems to me that either of these two concepts are human perceptions.

Let me start here:
It has been stated that 2+2 = 4 and that is a truth.

Start there what exactly is the nature of '+'? How about '='? If you have two groups of two and put them in close proximity do you now have a singular group of four? Or do you have a group of three and one? What about no groups at all and each bean is perfect in its individuality? What makes something a group? Who decides if these items constitute a group--is that not based on human perception?

What about the '=' sign? What does it mean to be equal or the same as? How can these four beans be equivalent to the two groups of two bean that were here previously? The two groups of two beans had a quality of twoness that no longer exists, therefore they are not equal.

Thusly it seems that even in the most elementary of mathematical expressions we cannot find 'the' absolute truth.

There is no such thing as absolute truth. Unless of course you say there is, in which case you are right and absolute truth abounds.

This is really a question about the definition of reality. Is there is a separate reality that exists independantly of your mind? Or is the 'real world' a construct that you create in order to navigate what we loosely term life?

If it is the latter you can define absolute truth as you wish and apply it at will.

If it is the former than absolute truth encompasses everything there is. There is no such thing as a subjective truth. There is merely imperfect retellings of absolute and perfect truth.


Which do you believe in? I don't think you can conclusively prove either of these situations. All that is left beyond this is faith-belief-believe (re: my earlier post)


Confused? Me too.


Whistler

 

Firstly we should define terms. When I think of "absolute truth" I think of the "Big Why" like why are we here. While I believe that there must be a sum of knowledge that would put everything(reality) in context, I don't believe we can experience it with our limited perspective. I also don't believe "why" is a valid question.

I don't think we're talking about that here. I gather we are talking about "universal truth" as it pertains to ethics and morality.

I have been trying to come up with examples of cultural values and ethics that are common to all peoples but can find none without exceptions. Here's a few on my list:
1. all mothers treasure and protect their offspring. No not all!
2. all people regard eating human flesh as wrong. No not all!
3. all people value their own life. No not all!
4. all people consider theft wrong. No some don't even have a word for it.
5. all people believe that the remains of a person deserve respectful handling. No again not all.
6. Sex between an adult man and a girl of thirteen is wrong. Definitely not all.

So far I would have to say No there are no universal ethics or morality.

 

Hope I don't disappoint here.

I no more believe in a soul than I do in God. I will say I can't say for sure that death is the end, oblivion, but that's what I suspect.
I have no evidence that my consciousness in not the sum of my senses and the belief that the "energy" producing my consciousness comes from some supernatural source is fanciful at best and arrogance at worst.

More importantly I don't believe the issue to be germane.
Regardless of what may come next, I think we would all do well to treat this life as our only shot and value the people and things in it accordingly. Let the next life wait until you get there and then deal with it.

 

I think this thread started with the belief that there are some absolute truths/universal truths that humans should follow but do not.

Therefore your examples merely demonstrate how far removed human behavior is from the 'absolute' laws imposed from elsewhere.


Whistler



PS Who gets to determine what are these absolute truths/laws has not been decided.

 

And when your wife says "do these pants make my butt look big?"

or, "how do i look?"

you always answer absolutly honest? or are you so in love, that no matter the question, the answer is always pleasing, and keeps you in the bed, not on the couch that evening???

 

I voted subjective. There are always exceptions to the rule.

 

Through any 2 points there is exactly one line.
The shortest distance between 2 points is a strait line.

Wouldn't those be considered absolute?

 

Not if there is a big enough mountin between the two points.

()

 

There are somethings for which there is scientific and emperical evidance that I believe can be considered absolute truths; such as mathematical theories (shortest distance between two points is a straight line), physiological "truths" (humans must have oxygen enriched blood flowing through their circulatory system to sustain life). Granted there are factors that can impact these truths (i.e a mountain between two points interupts the straight line - but then again the mountain can be tunneled through or removed. Also as science advances, sometimes truths can and do change, i.e. prior to 1492 it was thought the earth was flat. Those facts that can be proven by science, to me, appear to be absolute.

Much of what we believe or know as "reality" are things based on culture and our values and, as we all know, different cultures and different people have different values and beliefs. To a culture that is isolated from other cultures, their beliefs appear to be absolute. It is when a society comes in contact with other societies that belief structures begin to be challenged and questioned. These "subjective" beliefs are not absolute and are not even necessarily truths - but only preceived as truths to those who believe in them or value them.

Some societies may even question "absolute" (scientifically proveable) truths due to lack of knowledge about those facts. That, however, does not make the truth less absolute. Usually when education occurs, those societies see these facts as absolute truths.

I am one who has a difficult time believing and accepting those things which are not able to be scientifically backed. The concept of God is very hard for me to accept (although I also find it hard to believe that a world as beautiful and diverse as our earth could just "evolve" from a big bang without some kind of master plan) since there is no scientific evidence supporting his/her/its existance. Concepts like God are accepted on faith and often it is easier to explain phenomenon that we can't understand by attributing it to a divine being.

Yeh! It is a complex question with no easy answer and possibly no answer at all. It comes down to individual beliefs. Now you know mine!

 

johare, Bravo!!

Very well said, thank you.

()

 

johare,

Could you come help me in the other thread, the Christians are ganging up on me.

Just kiddin and I too like the way you express yourself.

 

Even if there is absolute truth that doesn't mean it will always be spoken, or that it would even be appropriate to speak if it would hurt another person.
Of course there is absolute truth, we may not always know what it is, how to apply it or even recognize it, but that doesn't change the fact that is IS.

Maybe this is because"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I just had to quote Jack on the subject. lol.

On a more serious note or qoute, "The truth will set you free". That's better.

 

Sinjin
I just scanned the other thread ( I am assuming you refer to the 17 page, "Is God an impossibility" one) and I don't think I want to take the time to weight in on that one!

I believe I am a spiritual person. I have great reverance for all things natural and am awed by the beauty of mother nature. I am equally amazed and thankful for the diversity (human and otherwise) that exists on this earth. I have all my life, that I can remember, questioned those things that I couldn't touch, see, hear, smell, or otherwise "prove" existed.

I do feel very strongly that all humans are entitled to their beliefs so long as their beliefs do not infringe upon or cause hurt to other humans. Therefore I wish to let the Christians hold to their beliefs, the Moslems to theirs, the atheists to theirs, etc. provided they respect my right to hold to mine.

But I am willing to "debate" issues!!

By the way Ford trucks are best is an absolute truth!

 

Sinjin - you're a WIMP !!


(just kidding) Everytime I go see that ~40 folks think guns are harmless (alone) and that ONE VOTE saying "get rid of 'em" I take my hat off to your intestinal fortitude and your willingness to stand up for what you believe (no matter how whacked it may be!).

I am glad you are back - and I am glad you are here in the first place. But please don't get johare to help - he's FAR to open minded to argue easily with.

Sincerely,
Frizzy.