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Well, removed starter and had it tested, it failed. Armature would only push out sometimes and would not spin at all. Took it to 2 different places just to get a second test done. Both were the same.
Was kind of surprised it was a 2 bolt mounting configuration, I always thought the 7.3's were a 3 bolt mounting?
So now, to decide which starter to buy, Might as well get a quality one .
Looking at Denso from CNC Fab. From website photo, looks like 2 bolt mounting if that's correct. Also I thought I read you need longer bolts? If so what size are they?
Another suggestion I found was to run another ground wire from starter mounting bolt to frame. What do you think?
I'll be doing a search on FTE
My hope is I replace the starter and it fires right up, and the pop I heard was from starter (fingers crossed)
As for the longer bolts, yes, you need them. This is because the mating surface of the Denso is about twice as thick and this only allows the OEM bolts to get a couple of threads in. I want to say you need 40mm, but search for posts by me with 40mm or 45mm and you should be able to find out for sure.
BigBlackDually is the one that clued me in on this and I was very grateful. If a search for my name doesn't work, look for his and Denso.
If you still cannot find it, I will get on my laptop and find it for you.
Mark has a good idea too. When I installed my Denso I kept the OEM starter as a backup. I had intentions of having it rebuilt at a trusted local shop, but it went to another FTE'r for free in their time of need. I was able to hand it to him and get his truck back on the road, which was nice to repay the FTE community a bit.
Another option I saw recently was by Mitsubishi I think? Maybe it was @jstihl that bought the starter a while back, I'm not sure... If it wasn't him, I can try to find the thread if you like.
Mark has a good idea too. When I installed my Denso I kept the OEM starter as a backup. I had intentions of having it rebuilt at a trusted local shop, but it went to another FTE'r for free in their time of need. I was able to hand it to him and get his truck back on the road, which was nice to repay the FTE community a bit.
Another option I saw recently was by Mitsubishi I think? Maybe it was @jstihl that bought the starter a while back, I'm not sure... If it wasn't him, I can try to find the thread if you like.
Yes I bought a mitsubishi m8t50072 high torque starter for around $185 at j&s diesel but unfortunately they seem to be out of stock right now though. the other ones I've seen online are going for about $100 more. If I had to spend that much money I would just get the Denso👍
There were at least (4) OEM starters. IMHO, the Mitsubishi is the best.
The Denso is way better. No need for a rebuilder. It will last longer than the OEM units and then you can ‘rebuild’ it yourself. Mine needed new contacts ($30 and 10 minutes) after like 180k miles and it’s been probably another 100k since then. Long bolts are probably a good idea, but I’ve used stock bolts and blue loctite on the MANY I’ve installed with no issues.
I am going to quote myself on the bolt specifications simply for the sake of Hootr and future readers in search of a starter and stumbling onto this thread.
If you are installing the Denso or similar style starter with the thicker mounting surface, you should definitely use longer bolts.
Bolts required for proper mounting on the ZF6 are M10-1.5 x 45
You can see the difference in thickness of the mounting surface between the OEM and Denso here...
Here is a picture of the 45mm bolts with a lock washer going through the starter and through the case.
If you don't use a washer or lock washer, you could probably get away with a 40mm bolt. The OEM bolts are 30mm and far too short with the Denso style starter because they only get a few threads in. See image below for OEM (30mm), 35mm, 40mm and the 45mm is the one I used that goes all the way through the case threads. This is a very secure method of mounting a large, gear reduction starter that will need all the bite it can get.
For the ZF6 they were M10 x 1.5 x 45mm bolts. Brad used 40mm and I would assume the M10 is still the same, but might not be.
This is what the 45mm look like after mounted. Imagine the OEM 30mm in there, very drastic difference in bite between the two.
FTE'r The Brade replied with...
Originally Posted by The Brad
Yes, they’re M10 x 1.5 x 40mm. I also bought #12 lock washers.
He has a 4R100 and the 40mm may be better suited for that application. As you can see from my images above, I used OEM style lock washers and did not use blue loctite. My thoughts were that the lock washers were probably good enough to hold the starter in place when it was activated. I usually (when I remember) check the starter bolts when changing the oil. As well as the differential vents and a general look over. I have a Fumoto oil drain valve to make changing the oil on the road easier and it takes a little while to drain the 7.3L oil pan.
Plenty of time to hang out and have a look around or go grab a fresh coffee or hot chocolate.
The fellas have provided you with a lot of information and hopefully these contributions will allow you to make an informed decision going forward. We still don't know what the popping noise was, but if the new starter gets the truck going again and all seems fine, then roll with it...
Keep us updated sir and good luck on your truck. 1st world problems are great problems to have!
If you don't use a washer or lock washer, you could probably get away with a 40mm bolt. The OEM bolts are 30mm and far too short with the Denso style starter because they only get a few threads in. See image below for OEM (30mm), 35mm, 40mm and the 45mm is the one I used that goes all the way through the case threads. This is a very secure method of mounting a large, gear reduction starter that will need all the bite it can get.
I will probably get 40mm and 45mm to be safe. Will need to see if I can find them here locally. Where did you find yours Sous?
Are those just standard grade 8.8 metric with zinc coating?
I cannot remember for sure what grade they were, but 8.8 sounds right. Just be aware of the torque spec for the bolts going into the case. I have pasted them below from the Ford Service Manual.
As you can see from the quotes above, you will need either M10-1.5 x 40 or M10-1.5 x 45 based on your application. I would recommend lock washers similar to the OEM lock washers used. I got mine from Ace Hardware or Fastenal, I cannot remember for sure. They are a fairly common size bolt and I had no problems finding them, not that I recall anyway. That is why I had several choices lined up in order to size them appropriately.
The Denso is a good choice. Denso is a great company to get parts from. Some of the parts on my Subaru with 130,000 miles on it say Denso. The only thing I have ever replaced on the Subaru has been the belt and the spark plugs. I trust Denso just as much as I trust Motorcraft or Alliant.
I remember when Donny Brasco found that listing. By all means, go for it if that seems right for you. I decided to go through Corey at CNC Fabrication Diesel Performance. I have done a lot of business with Corey and spoken to him several times. He is a stand up guy that is reliable and loyal. Many FTE'rs have been customers of his and some have even been to his shop in person. I helped him with testing of his HPO hoses years ago.
If you are hesitant on the purchase price of the Denso, think about it for a few and see what feels right to you. I knew of the Mitsubishi starter that jstihl purchased and is very happy with, but for my application the Denso was the right choice for me. I get it and understand that the choices I make are not always right for others. Go the route that gives you the most peace when you think about it. Sometimes that is the financially better way and sometimes it is not.
Let us know how it goes and either way you go, you will have a good and reliable starter!
I seem to recall a difference between the ZF6 and the AT on those bolts. Like one of them can handle a longer bolt and the other can't?
I think you are right. I believe that the upper hole was a blind hole, but I am not sure. I mentioned what The Brad used for a bolt length and he has a Dorsey 4R100. I think BigBadDually had a Ford 4R100 as well.
New Denso Ordered.
Acquired M10 X 1.5 in 40, 45, and 50 mm length.
Made a new 1/0 ground cable, cleaned frame and mounted lug, to go from frame to starter mounting bolt.
Both upper and lower bolt holes do not go all the way thru, which is why I got all 3 sizes of bolt. Threads cleaned.
Also, may need a larger bolt to accommodate the added ground lug and lock washers.
Debating on weather to add blue loctite or not.
Probably won't have time to install it before next weekend. Pictures to follow after starter arrives and installed.
Just an update.
Received the Denso Starter and like everyone said, it is a BEAST. Must be twice the size of my OEM.
Definitely was a chore to get it installed. Mounted it 1st and saw what a pain to get wiring connected. So removed the starter, and had a friend hold it up while I connected the wiring thru the fender opening. I tightened the solenoid wire but left the battery cable wire nut loose for movement for installing.
Also very helpful was I used a 4" 5/16 piece of fuel line tube to use as a line up guide that just slid in the top threads, and helped with bottom bolt line up and starting. When the bottom bolt was snug, it made it a breeze to get the top bolt started since it is already lined up.
I ended up using 45mm length bolts. Used a torque wrench for the bottom bolt, but that wasn't going to happen for the top bolt. Here's a pic of Starter with new ground wire installed
Tightened battery cable to starter, hooked up batteries, turned key to start and she fired right up in about 1 sec. Very happy with how fast the Denso spins.
Thinking the clunk or pop was the starter armature was not retracted after starting and somehow bound up, which caused engine to die. weird.
Here is a pic of the fly wheel. You can somewhat see some binding that happened on the teeth. Not sure what that plastic cap was that I found in there
Anyway, she's back on the road.. As always, thanks for the help. FTE is the best..
