Kind of got my wheels turning listening to Jason talk about tuning near the end of our meet and greet.

Have you guys ever read this thread?

Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts - PowerStrokeArmy

Alot of interesting things stated in here, im about 1/4 way thru, been awhile since ive read it.

Is turning off the sensors like eot, ebp, iat etc etc how alot of tuners do their thing? Or is that something not so common?

Ive never tuned a 7.3 or even played with the software, but i got a bit of experience with 6.7 cummins and MCC.

It seems like that would enable you to produce a simpler, better tune? Except in extreme cold climates etc where you can benefit some feedback and adjustments in cold weather.

If im spewing a bunch of stupid **** thats already been covered ,let me know, ill go hide in the corner. It seems like alot of this has already been hashed out in the last 15 years, but most of those guys have moved on to common rail so we need to breathe new life in this.

 

We did get into quite a good discussion on tuning and I too have been thinking if going this route, again. I asked some questions here on the forum a couple of years ago and gathered a bunch of information for myself.

For myself to help with making a decision to go to Minotaur tuning on the Hydra or not.

Short version: Not worth it for someone with stock injectors. Even less worth it for someone with stock injectors and a ZF6. Already, 50% of the tuning equation is out the window with the ZF6.

Long version: I contacted PHP a few times a couple years ago and even spoke to them on the phone at length about this. I noted the cost of the 1:1 training and Q&A, software, license for my box code, travel and a couple of other things. Again, I decided it wouldn't be worth it for me, on a personal level.

I thought about helping others on the FTE having problems, but I would be very cautious and felt this was not the right course of action. It is one thing if I only have myself to blame, but it is another if someone else has me to blame.

I managed to secure some funding for the 1:1 Minotaur course, that is how close I was to going through with it. Although, I didn't move forward with it because of the previously stated reasons. PHP is about 60 miles down the road from my couch, so logistics was not a problem.

Going forward... My plan is to install new Alliant 160/0 injectors using the Titan Unlock pack from PHP. "IF", and that us a big if, if the Titan Unlock doesn't give me the performance I am looking for, I will go the Minotaur route with some 1:1 training time at physically being at PHP.

The cost of the Titan Unlock, Minotaur, license and 1:1 training might be less than throwing money at tuners I cannot and do not trust. The money for that stuff might be more than throwing money at tuners I cannot and do not trust. I can tell you this, I DO NOT want to deal with unresponsive tuners, ignorant tuners, tuners that do not listen and tuners that insist something is wrong with the hardware because the tunes are "perferct". Remember, I don't have a 4R100 to mess with, so tuning my truck is very easy comparatively.

What I do know is that I am capable of running Minotaur software for my own personal use. I know this based on what I have been told on the phone by PHP, what PHP has told me via email, what I have read here on the FTE and what I have read on other social media platforms.

Chris, you probably remember what i said at the Meet & Greet, so no need to repeat it here.

I have been in touch with at least 2 other FTE'rs considering the Minotaur software due to their frustration with tuners. I have told them if they were serious about it and went that route, that might be enough to convince me to jump off the bridge into the abyss with them. We could compare notes as we have done so many times on other big projects. We could text or chat on the phone as we have done on other big projects. We could delve into the Ford Service Manual as we have on other big projects.

I am always willing to learn or broaden my knowledge on the 7.3L, but at this time the requirement and passion to do so is not there. Maybe in 6 months things will be different. Maybe after injectors go in, maybe when the FTE has a gaggle of people comparing notes and information things will be different. Maybe we could learn from each other instead of learning for ourselves...

Maybe...

I will be following this thread and may jump on the bandwagon if the wagon is headed toward a place that I feel I could contribute skills, knowledge or whatever.

Can you imagine what just a few of us could come up with if we communicated... Using the PID Charting Tool to graph test runs... Using different scan tools with different modifications... At various ASL readings and various hardware...

I have a strong background in IT and can fumble my way around an engine fairly well, but I enjoy learning from others victories and pitfalls instead of experiencing those pitfalls myself...

Great thread Chris!

 

another good read that i mentioned in my text

Heui injectors - PowerStrokeArmy

 

Thank you sir, you are quick to respond!

This is good rainy day fall reading material.

 

First off, I am new here, so apologies if I am sticking my nose into something I shouldn't...I do not have a lot of experience tuning on diesels, but have a fair understanding of tuning gas engines. From what I understand, you can start deleting some sensors or parameters in a tune, and it can simplify the tune somewhat. Some sensor readings I would assume would be for engine safeguards, such as engine oil temp. That one in particular seems redundant if you have a coolant temp also. The thing is, the fewer inputs you have, the less "intuitive" your tune would be, in my opinion. If you were not reading an IAT in your tune, and there was a major change in IAT, your tune would not adjust. Does it need to? That is anyones guess.
I noticed referencing the PHP Minotaur software. Now full disclaimer...I probably won't be doing any tuning on my own with any software because I use a MacBook, and no one makes Mac compatible software. I have looked at the info on the PHP website, and it looks like a good product, but I have a friend who does a lot of tuning with HPTuners. We have seen that HP recently (relative) started supporting the 7.3. That being said, anyone here have any luck with HPTuners on their 7.3? Or is the PHP product about all their is for the DIY tuners out there?

 

From what ive read, the comparison is getting you closer to a mechanically injected diesel. I'm seeing most of the things like iat, eot etc are related to cold start and or emissions.

Specifically kind of a tune more like a b model cat that has infinite control over the injection timing vs just using engine oil and rpm(what the cat has). Even p7100 pumps run great with their fixed timing in various conditions(depending on line size, timing, compression etc(i.e how hopped up it is.)).

Someone please correct me if im wrong. I intend to find the section in the first thread link above where i saw this discussed.

years back I tuned my common rail 6.7 cummins (before the "12v tune", and "lope tunes" etc were common) with fixed timing across the board and turned off pre/post shots and drove it a few thousand miles as an experiment. I was surprised how strong it still ran losing the timing curve, now im not saying it ran better, or that we should do that. Stating this for sake of discussion.

From reading that injector thread i have gathered that maybe the tuning hasn't been pushed far on a commercial level because this platform just cant make the big power the common rail or p-pumps can. you simply cant flow that much oil. So the profit potential to provide more than just a "Canned" tune isnt there. (see post 6 here oil/fuel math, 24 gpm)

It seems like there would still be a market for providing a "live" tune for your average guy with average injectors, single turbo and hpop etc. It also seems like these things are much more difficult to tune because the variable of the oil pressure is not easily controlled(more variables?) like in a common rail with much less flexibility when compared to a given engine rpm?



Ok, tear me apart.

 

That is the "beauty" of having a plethora of inputs to control the outputs. The more inputs you have the more pleasant outputs you can derive. Fixed timing is something I have seen guys do in gas motors...and that timing is based on whatever purpose the motor is for, whether stationary operation at a fixed load, rpm, etc, or for specific purpose, such as just running WOT. For hardcore performance tuning, limiting the inputs would definitely make it easier, and more like a mechanically injected diesel, but you lose all of the driveability and flexibility the electronic controls gain you.

 

This thread interests me. I've been thinking of replacing the injectors in my Excursion (likely with 160/0s or 160/30s), and have been perusing threads looking for a tuner. Years ago it seemed like everyone on here liked the tuner they'd chosen, now it seem like no one likes any of them. The thought of learning how to do this, along with all the smart folks on this forum, is interesting to me. I could offer up the variables of altitude and cold temps.

Mr. Sous, I've haven't checked, but do you know if PHP offers Minotaur courses online? Like you, I have a background in IT - way more so than working on trucks, which I've gotten passable at - so diving into the programming side of these seems natural.

Mark

 

Is that for the 7.3L diesel or the 7.3L gasoline? Either way, Minotaur software only works on the Hydra.

Mark, I do not know. They may be offering one now though due to C-19. When I was in contact with them last year, it was well before the pandemic pandemonium.

They do have a social media platform that you can ask questions and get answers from other Minotaur users and PHP employees including Bill himself. I have not posted on that platform before, but do visit it just for general knowledge of what is happening and how things work.

If this idea turns into anything substantial for us, I don't see why we couldn't create a bit of a "how to" or "Q&A" here on the FTE. Of course, we would ask PHP about it first, but I don't see why they would mind since we would only be promoting their business and software. Perhaps we could even get them to be a sponsor and jump in here to talk to us about the questions or ideas we have. I know this is just daydreaming, but every idea has to start somewhere. Look at what happened with the PID Charting Tool.

The FTE community saw a need for something and developed it, perfected it and now it is available for all to use. The Minotaur software would still need to be purchased by the individual user, but if they could purchase that instead of buying tunes a couple times over and fighting with tuners to get their engine running right, it may be worth the time, effort and money for quite a few of us and many more in the future.

 

I am thinking a thread like one of these that we as a community have developed and educated ourselves from. These are just quick examples that popped into my head.

• 7.3L PSD Tech Folder
• PID Charting Tool
• FORScan & FSL Class
• Ford Service Manual Tips
• AE Class is in session!
• How to use Minotaur software on your 7.3L

 

I would sure like to do that. Thanks for the links, Kubota. Wish I had the time to learn this and develop my own tunes, but good reading for the time being.

 

They have support for both the new gas motor and the old PSD 7.3. Now this caveat...on the HPTuners forum, early on there were problems with the 7.3 PSD interface, and I have not seen any feedback lately as to whether or not this was fixed. The reason HPTuners is appealing to me is having someone that has experience with it and Edge Products now offers a monitor product that you can load 4 HPTuners tunes into. This makes it a more promising format if you want more than 1 tune available. But PHP is also a good option and an older, better known quantity for those that use it, just not as widely available. No matter what interface you use, it seems that tuning settings will be the same, and I am sure there would be a lot of information that could be shared back and forth across platforms.

 

I agree, dynamic timing is a beautiful thing, BUT having p7100 swapped and driven my 24v for a few years, i was very surpised how hard the engine would pull at all different rpm with a middle of the road timing setting like 17-21*, not much above what was factory setting. So i wanted to see how it did in my newish at the time common rail 6.7 for kicks. It actually was hard to feel much of a difference , and fuel economy didnt really change either.
If you think about it, all the 94-98 dodge running around have fixed timing, most in the 14-18* range. Same goes for dt466's and mack e6, e9 etc that all used that same p-pump.

Not saying not to utilize dynamic timing at all, but im saying something you would think would make the vehicle undrivable actually didnt change things near as much as i expected. Kind of like charles point below about "turning that crap off". It gets real complicated, to me, when you have more than one table of 3 axis to deal with. so keeping those to a minimum would seem to be good. Of course im picturing mcc and speculating as ive never seen the minitar interface


screename Charles - post 19,page 2 , i dont know who he is, but alot of the guys on there seemed to know him, and that **** seems to make sense to me.

I would like to try a tune like that just to see if my elusive idle shake was still there.Or hell, for all i know the canned php tunes are already written that way, anyone know?


me too, i have alot of reading left to do, including just seeing what the hardware and software costs. Id like to give it a shot sometime in near future

 

I can tell you this, in 2013-2014 there were a couple of guys, myself included who shared alot of 6.7 mcc tunes, and notes amongst each other via email, and it was really helpful with improving things.

 

Bill of PHP produced one training video that is on his channel on YouTube, called Minotaur 1 or something like that. The video doesn't discuss tuning at all. It only discusses how to start the program, select the base calibration, and select comparison calibrations as reference points.

But I mention the video because it was called "1", as if there was an intent to produce subsequent videos labeled "2", "3", "4", etc, suggesting that each successive video chapter might delve more deeply in how to make use of the Minotaur software.

Perhaps even "how to tune" one day.

Nevertheless, beyond the sea of hexadecimal sequences filling the screen of tuning interfaces prior to Minotaur, and beyond the WYSIWYG interface that software like Minotaur and HPTuning provide that make tuning more accessible to the layman, there remains yet an art to tuning that cannot be solved with software. That art comes from experience, combined with a comprehensive knowledge about vehicle and combustion mechanics. But that is not all either. What seems to really distinguish a good tune from a bad tune is the mindset of the tuner.

When the tuner mindset is to make a buck, we find tricks like tweaking the voltage values of the accelerator pedal position to make a customer feel as if the vehicle is more responsive. When folks came to realize that they had been tricked, this practice became frowned upon. And as that generation grew old and out of it, a new generation of tuners now do the trick, but put it in a little box and call it a cute name, like Pedal Controller... where they unabashedly tell the new wide eyed power hungry customer, yup, that's what we're doing, we're changing the response rate of the accelerator pedal so you can feel more power. And people buy it. It makes money. And that is in keeping with the mindset of that type of "tuner."

Little wonder why folks who have a different mindset would rather just tune their own vehicles themselves.