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Oh, and that session you had with the extended period of idling could have overheated some ignition components from the other setup.
Not very likely with points inside the distributor, but depending on where the coil is mounted it's possible to overheat a coil. If it had electronic and an external black box/modulator it's very possible that it overheated.
As far as overheating parts though, about the only other thing that could suffer from this would be a fuel pump. And that used to be something we didn't worry about. Modern fuel pumps are not very high quality anymore however, so I would not rule out a bad fuel pump when looking for why the engine died.
Then again, with that wide open port sucking air at a much higher volume than allowed, you could have potentially burned a valve in the engine even from running too lean. However, just one or two or three would not keep an engine from running. It would not run well of course, but it would still run and that would show up in a compression test anyway.
Can you post an image of the black box you speak of?
Someone has upgraded his ignition system to a mid 70s duraspark .His distributor has s reluctor wheel and hall effect sensor. Even if he removes that he still doesn't have the little cam that the points ride on where you mount the magnet so he can't install his Pertronix
Gotcha. I see that was discussed already but I obviously wasn't paying attention in class! I was wondering what it was you were referring to in your previous post.
Thanks for the clarification.
Pertronix does make them for most distributors. But they are different for each application, so if yours is not for your specific model distributor that could be why it's not easy to figure out.
Also, you say things look sealed. It's possible that the previous owner installed a different brand of trigger mechanism inside already. If that's the case then that would easily explain why it's not looking normal. Since you've done it before, you would recognize how to do it now. The Ford distributors might be slightly different for your engine than the 289, but they should be recognizable as from the same family.
The reason they don't need any external black box is that the ON/OFF signal they generate is strong enough to trigger the coil by itself. Red wire to power, Black wire to coil negative. Just like the 289.
Some other brands require a separate modulator to interpret/amplify (some are actually called amplifiers) the distributor signal to something the coil can use.
If by "black box" though, you mean the one that goes inside the distributor from Pertronix, then yes you absolutely must have that since that is the signal generator (if that's a proper word here) that works with the black disc/cylinder thingy that slips over the rotor shaft.
Paul
HI,
with Black Box i mean the duraspark Box...
Compression is leaked is tested by me, everything ok. Passender side as 10psi more compression than driver side in average.
Vacuum in idle on the advance port is around 4-5 psu.
Fuelpump looks ok and works normal.
So ill have to get the ignitor Thing done somehow and i will put the flamethrower coil and also New sparkplugs in.
Also put a PCv in and Set the carb. After that, it should run!?
Any idea how to handle the distributor as it is slightly impossible to get a original one from this years...?
My's looks like this, pretty exactly the same.
So far it is Clear for me, that the duraspark Box is basicly a ampliefier but why there are so many wirings going through and why there is also something what looks like a spring in a half open housing (2cm x 8cm) connected? If it is just a ampliefier, plus minus and Signal in/out should be enough?
Anyhow, once the problem is fixed, I probably got a pretty ok understanding of These old engines. So May at the end its a good Thing as i planned to collect more of These cars in the future. I will stay with ford because IT is the beginning of car Industrie as we know it and where a live from
Passender side as 10psi more compression than driver side in average.
That's pretty good and certainly close enough.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Vacuum in idle on the advance port is around 4-5 psu.
Something wrong with that reading right there.
If it's full manifold vacuum then that's too low. Should be more like 18 to 21
If it's ported/timed vacuum, there should be zero at idle. Only going up as you push the throttle lever up.
So this aspect is worth triple checking to see why you have that reading.
But just to make sure, what range are you measuring? Is PSU a particular value, or is that a typo? We measure in "inches of mercury" or "HG" I think is what we use. Is that the same as your gauges work with?
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
So ill have to get the ignitor Thing done somehow and i will put the flamethrower coil and also New sparkplugs in.
Is there a big reason for needing the Ignitor? I'll try to re-read this discussion from the beginning, but if you have Dura Spark and it's working to spark, and you're getting a good healthy white/blue spark across the plug gaps, then I don't think changing the ignition is a priority. You still have other issues to deal with.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Also put a PCv in and Set the carb.
Excellent! Glad to hear that vacuum leak will be fixed.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
After that, it should run!?
No way for us to tell. Since your symptoms are not a common thing it's hard to guarantee anything at this point.
It does seem like you're fixing everything though, so we can hope.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Any idea how to handle the distributor as it is slightly impossible to get a original one from this years...?
Yes... Don't change it yet.
Since it seems to be working to provide spark to the plugs, keep it for now. I don't remember, but did you check the inner module with an ohm meter?
At the 3-wire connector you put the test probes between the Orange and the Purple wires. You should see a reading of between 400 and 700 ohms. If it's outside of that range, or even very close to the limits, I would replace the stator and reluctor (the blue thing and the cogged wheel on the shaft) with one of the common kits available. Not expensive, and since they're small perhaps not too expensive to ship to you if needed.
[QUOTE=Steven Fleischer-Winkler;19294171]So far it is Clear for me, that the duraspark Box is basicly a ampliefier but why there are so many wirings going through and why there is also something what looks like a spring in a half open housing (2cm x 8cm) connected? If it is just a ampliefier, plus minus and Signal in/out should be enough?
Can you show us a picture of this spring and housing? And for the Dura Spark there should only be 6 wires out of the modulator for most models. Some do have more and I don't remember which one you have. I'll have to revisit that again too, since I seem to be having more and more trouble remembering important details about the discussions I'm in these days.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Anyhow, once the problem is fixed, I probably got a pretty ok understanding of These old engines. So May at the end its a good Thing as i planned to collect more of These cars in the future. I will stay with ford because IT is the beginning of car Industrie as we know it and where a live from
That sounds great. Plenty of interesting cars and trucks from Ford over the years. Every company had something fun and interesting to work with, but sticking with one brand at least for now will also help you get more familiar with the designs and workings.
Good luck!
After you give the truck gas 4 or 5 times it starts to run bad. Do that from under the hood with the air cleaner off and make sure your accelerator pump is not getting stuck
After you give the truck gas 4 or 5 times it starts to run bad. Do that from under the hood with the air cleaner off and make sure your accelerator pump is not getting stuck
Ive done that... The crazy thing is... if i do this with a gear in, like normal acceleration on the streer, the problem appears after 2 seconds. If I do it in neutral, it takes like 10 seconds until the problem shows up.
This was the main reason what was leading me to the guess it must be the fuel system. But this is ok.
After doing stuff like checking ignition, carb and so on, the problem become worse. Not it does not do idle anymore.
Also: It is doing idle "ok" with choke but without choke it dies right away.
If I apply just a litte throttle from idel, the engine is dying instantly.
I am really not sure what to do next. Someone is writing to check some voltage here and some vacuum there but I got the feeling I am not going any further.
Is there any chelickst or plan to go step by step to make sure the subsystems are working ok?
Please comment my guesses below:
1. From my point of view, as I checked compression, leakage and visual inspection of each cylinder. the engine itself should be ok?! Anything else to check?
2. As the engine is firing up and it sounds like all cylinders are running, spraks and durasprak box, coil are ok? Or can it be ok for idle but not for higher rpm? And why it is ok for higher RPM for a couple of seconds but after not anymore?
3. I have no idea what to check exactly on the carb, there are no obvious defects but I have no Idea what i should check exactly.
4. starter is turning and makes the engine firing up, anything else to check there?
5. I meassured the vacuum on the vacuum advanced port of the carb. There is a vacuum in idle about 5-10 hg. Measured by a standart gauge which i had from a industrial machine we are using in my company.
6. The truck was running good, at one time, the connection between the header and the exhaus system became loose (like 1cm from nothing to now) it startet. I drove the truck back into my company (about 12miles) and closed the gap by screwing it back.
I diddnt do anything but left the truck there. After a couple of days, it was a sunny day and i was willing to take the truck for my ride to home and leaving the daily driver there. I startet the truck in the sun and was ready to go, a fried showed up and was taking my attention for like 40min. At the end of the talk, the engine was dying behind of us but I did not gave a guess.... startet the truck and startet my ride. After a few yards the problem did appear and the engine was dying. From that point I startet to search for problems.
Please forgive for my english, I am not a native speaker and I am jsut typing right away without much correction in gramma.
I would also be happy about a contact by whatsapp or any videoapp as I am really hopeless right now because I am not sure what the state of the engine is and If I produced more problems by trying to fix one
Got the truck since january and I am really angry about the f... engine... at the moment I start to throw tools around my shop xD
Well if you have the flamethrower coil, go ahead and put that in. While the engine is running, use your vacuum pump to make sure the ignition advance is working. Hook it up to the distributor while idling and pump and it should make the engine speed up. Check this mess here under the blue tape to make sure nothing is loose.
Well if you have the flamethrower coil, go ahead and put that in. While the engine is running, use your vacuum pump to make sure the ignition advance is working. Hook it up to the distributor while idling and pump and it should make the engine speed up. Check this mess here under the blue tape to make sure nothing is loose.
Hi,
the cables are fine, I checked any cable and any visible contact below the hood.
Vacuum advance Mechanism is checked and working. If the ratio of movement in relation to the vac is ok, I dont know. If the vacuum is ok i dont know either.
Your starter issue might be heat soak - heat from the exhaust is warming the starter so much that it’s ability to turn over is reduced, although typically you only get this if you’re running headers instead of the original exhaust manifold. A common solution is a starter cover or header wrap, or even replacing the starter with a “mini” starter that is less prone to heat soak. If your running lean then it’s possible the exhaust is getting warm enough to cause issues that normally won’t be there.
I have a 61 Lincoln with this issue, but only once it’s been driven for a while. I’ve had the starter replaced numerous times but no one has suggested a heat issue until I was reading some online forums. A mini-starter for that car is $300+, while the mini-starters for our FEs are a more affordable $200.
No problem with the English Steven. Yours is 85% there and better than some of ours probably!
More trouble with the names of the parts than with your functional language. We'll get through that part too though.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Ive done that... The crazy thing is... if i do this with a gear in, like normal acceleration on the street, the problem appears after 2 seconds. If I do it in neutral, it takes like 10 seconds until the problem shows up.
This was the main reason what was leading me to the guess it must be the fuel system. But this is ok.
There was another owner on a forum with a Bronco that found out that his carburetor was missing two very small check-***** and was causing him to lose power and stall out while trying to climb a steep road, or push hard on the accelerator. I don't know if your carburetor has those same check-*****, because you have metering rods and such. As far as I know.
But because it ran fine before, it's possible for it to be something clogging up the carburetor passages. Possibly needing a good cleaning.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
After doing stuff like checking ignition, carb and so on, the problem become worse. Not it does not do idle anymore.
This sounds easy to fix, unless it's being caused by that same gunk that might be clogging the carburetor.
If it won't idle good now, have you tried adjusting the idle speed and mixture screws? Have you tried advancing the ignition timing? These are all things that should be tried at least, when fighting an idle problem.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Also: It is doing idle "ok" with choke but without choke it dies right away.
If I apply just a litte throttle from idel, the engine is dying instantly.
This sounds like too much air and not enough fuel. Running too lean due to either a vacuum leak, poor quality spark from the ignition, or lack of gas from the accelerator pump nozzle.
At least those are some of the things that can cause this.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
I am really not sure what to do next. Someone is writing to check some voltage here and some vacuum there but I got the feeling I am not going any further.
But they are also easy to check, which you have done in some cases already.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
Is there any checklist or plan to go step by step to make sure the subsystems are working ok?
It's a good idea. But I don't have the organized brain right now to create such a list. We've been going over and over some of the things that would be on that list already though.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
1. From my point of view, as I checked compression, leakage and visual inspection of each cylinder. the engine itself should be ok?! Anything else to check?
I agree with you. The basic engine platform should be good. About the only thing that would remain to check would be the amount of slack/slop/looseness in the timing chain. But even if it has stretched from old age, the engine would still run. So I don't think you need to trouble yourself about that just yet.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
2. As the engine is firing up and it sounds like all cylinders are running, sparks and durasprak box, coil are ok? Or can it be ok for idle but not for higher rpm?
And why it is ok for higher RPM for a couple of seconds but after not anymore?
The spark from the ignition can still be weak or intermittent and an engine can run well at idle but have no ability to work well under a load. It's a typical misfire problem.
But why it works for a few seconds and then no more, I'm not sure yet.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
3. I have no idea what to check exactly on the carb, there are no obvious defects but I have no Idea what i should check exactly.
Can you give us some closer pictures of the carburetor again please? It might give us something to look for. Maybe some adjustments to make.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
4. starter is turning and makes the engine firing up, anything else to check there?
No, that sounds good for now.
If it cranks the engine slowly sometimes, that can indicate a problem. But if it spins well each time and the engine starts, it seems that there is no trouble with the starter yet.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
5. I measured the vacuum on the vacuum advanced port of the carb. There is a vacuum in idle about 5-10 hg. Measured by a standart gauge which i had from a industrial machine we are using in my company.
Back to this. Your reading is VERY LOW for now. An engine's idle vacuum should exceed 17 and if in good working condition could be 21 or even more. But 21 is a very high number, and 5-10 is very low.
Measure again please, and move the throttle while you watch the gauge. Let us know what it reads at different levels.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
6. I started the truck in the sun and was ready to go, a fried showed up and was taking my attention for like 40min. At the end of the talk, the engine was dying behind of us but I did not gave a guess.... started the truck and started my ride. After a few yards the problem did appear and the engine was dying. From that point I started to search for problems.
This is the best clue so far I think. The problem started after an extended period of idling. You should not do this on an older engine. Modern fuel-injected and computer controlled engines can idle all day and not be bothered. But an old engine can have multiple issues. Including over-heating while you're not watching the gauge.
The heat under the hood, and even just the lower rpm can overheat an ignition coil and/or module. It can also create the conditions where the carburetor can get gunked up sometimes. Don't ask me how that works because I don't know. I only know that it's happened time and time again over the years to some vehicles. Now that they're even older, maybe it's more often?
Maybe the engine finally warmed up enough so that the choke has come off all the way for the first time in a long time, and now works properly. Maybe it did not before and that's the only thing that kept things going.
Then again, perhaps the idling overheated the engine. This was also a common issue back in the time of this truck's birth.
But just as likely the issue is just coincidental. It would have happened anyway.
Originally Posted by Steven Fleischer-Winkler
I would also be happy about a contact by whatsapp or any videoapp as I am really hopeless right now because I am not sure what the state of the engine is and If I produced more problems by trying to fix one
Got the truck since january and I am really angry about the f... engine... at the moment I start to throw tools around my shop xD
This part we completely understand!!!!
So for now you still have some things to try.
1. Wait until you fix the PCV system. Has that been done yet, or are you still waiting for the PCV valve?
2. Re-adjust the ignition timing at idle.
3. Re-adjust the carburetor with the choke all the way open. Change the settings on the screws until it idles.
3a. Re-adjust the timing again. Or at least check it.
Verifying that a carbureted engine is running properly is a dance between adjusting the timing and the carburetor, then the air mixture and the speed screw, then back and forth until it's all balanced.
Sometimes you get it the first time, sometimes it takes three or four times of going back and forth between one setting and the others.
4. Re-check that wiring that DertyFerd mentioned. Did you put that blue tape there, or was that on the wires before? Did you remove it and inspect the wires? Did you change anything?
5. Move the ignition coil to a new place. That may have worked on some engines, but it is generally considered a bad location for a coil. Yes, it gets cooling air from the fan, but if the fan is not going fast (such as when idling for extended periods) it can overheat.
5a. As mentioned, if you have a new coil, give it a try. But first let us know which part number it is and what it's resistance value is. If it's not compatible with a Dura Spark you don't really want to use it. Doing so might overheat the module.
That's about it for now. I have to go away from the computer but if I think of anything I will write it when I am able to come back.
No problem with the English Steven. Yours is 85% there and better than some of ours probably!
More trouble with the names of the parts than with your functional language. We'll get through that part too though.
There was another owner on a forum with a Bronco that found out that his carburetor was missing two very small check-***** and was causing him to lose power and stall out while trying to climb a steep road, or push hard on the accelerator. I don't know if your carburetor has those same check-*****, because you have metering rods and such. As far as I know.
But because it ran fine before, it's possible for it to be something clogging up the carburetor passages. Possibly needing a good cleaning.
This sounds easy to fix, unless it's being caused by that same gunk that might be clogging the carburetor.
If it won't idle good now, have you tried adjusting the idle speed and mixture screws? Have you tried advancing the ignition timing? These are all things that should be tried at least, when fighting an idle problem.
This sounds like too much air and not enough fuel. Running too lean due to either a vacuum leak, poor quality spark from the ignition, or lack of gas from the accelerator pump nozzle.
At least those are some of the things that can cause this.
But they are also easy to check, which you have done in some cases already.
It's a good idea. But I don't have the organized brain right now to create such a list. We've been going over and over some of the things that would be on that list already though.
I agree with you. The basic engine platform should be good. About the only thing that would remain to check would be the amount of slack/slop/looseness in the timing chain. But even if it has stretched from old age, the engine would still run. So I don't think you need to trouble yourself about that just yet.
The spark from the ignition can still be weak or intermittent and an engine can run well at idle but have no ability to work well under a load. It's a typical misfire problem.
But why it works for a few seconds and then no more, I'm not sure yet.
Can you give us some closer pictures of the carburetor again please? It might give us something to look for. Maybe some adjustments to make.
No, that sounds good for now.
If it cranks the engine slowly sometimes, that can indicate a problem. But if it spins well each time and the engine starts, it seems that there is no trouble with the starter yet.
Back to this. Your reading is VERY LOW for now. An engine's idle vacuum should exceed 17 and if in good working condition could be 21 or even more. But 21 is a very high number, and 5-10 is very low.
Measure again please, and move the throttle while you watch the gauge. Let us know what it reads at different levels.
This is the best clue so far I think. The problem started after an extended period of idling. You should not do this on an older engine. Modern fuel-injected and computer controlled engines can idle all day and not be bothered. But an old engine can have multiple issues. Including over-heating while you're not watching the gauge.
The heat under the hood, and even just the lower rpm can overheat an ignition coil and/or module. It can also create the conditions where the carburetor can get gunked up sometimes. Don't ask me how that works because I don't know. I only know that it's happened time and time again over the years to some vehicles. Now that they're even older, maybe it's more often?
Maybe the engine finally warmed up enough so that the choke has come off all the way for the first time in a long time, and now works properly. Maybe it did not before and that's the only thing that kept things going.
Then again, perhaps the idling overheated the engine. This was also a common issue back in the time of this truck's birth.
But just as likely the issue is just coincidental. It would have happened anyway.
This part we completely understand!!!!
So for now you still have some things to try.
1. Wait until you fix the PCV system. Has that been done yet, or are you still waiting for the PCV valve?
2. Re-adjust the ignition timing at idle.
3. Re-adjust the carburetor with the choke all the way open. Change the settings on the screws until it idles.
3a. Re-adjust the timing again. Or at least check it.
Verifying that a carbureted engine is running properly is a dance between adjusting the timing and the carburetor, then the air mixture and the speed screw, then back and forth until it's all balanced.
Sometimes you get it the first time, sometimes it takes three or four times of going back and forth between one setting and the others.
4. Re-check that wiring that DertyFerd mentioned. Did you put that blue tape there, or was that on the wires before? Did you remove it and inspect the wires? Did you change anything?
5. Move the ignition coil to a new place. That may have worked on some engines, but it is generally considered a bad location for a coil. Yes, it gets cooling air from the fan, but if the fan is not going fast (such as when idling for extended periods) it can overheat.
5a. As mentioned, if you have a new coil, give it a try. But first let us know which part number it is and what it's resistance value is. If it's not compatible with a Dura Spark you don't really want to use it. Doing so might overheat the module.
That's about it for now. I have to go away from the computer but if I think of anything I will write it when I am able to come back.
Paul
Thanks a lot for the huge amount of time you are spending for my Problem.
I will make a Checkliste myself and share with you all. So ill add things ob your Suggestion.
Probably ive got some time on wednesday. I will redocumente the Status quo than and Feedback here. Ill also do all mentioned Tests ans share the results. Probably i going to make a Video ans some pics...
The New coil is a 1.5 ohm pertronix flamethrower, so if should fit and also raise the voltage little bit? Ill also put new autolite 45 sparkplugs.
I am pretty Sure the car will work again as i can Not imagin that there should be a "Real" damage or defect. May the duraspark or the coil but another mechanical defect is Not really explaneable for me as i checked for visuell Cracks and stuff.
From now i am waiting for a new distributor which is ordered in the us.
Once it is done, I will put it in a go on.
I also got some pictures....
PICTURES WILL BE UPLOADED LATER DUE TO BAD INTERNET CONNECTION.
@all offtopic question: is the internet also on the limit of bandwide in the us since the virus thing startet?
