quest for reliability
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,941
Likes: 240
From: Texas
Yes that is the normal function of EGR, however specific to the 6.0 it is also used to protect the engine at high loads. Remember the 6.0 was "tuned" by Ford to produce 75+ more horsepower than Navistar supplied. If you just delete the EGR, make no other supporting modifications, and then use truck to its capability as rated by Ford you run a high risk of causing engine damage. The engine is a system and if modified should to be modified as a complete system in order to be reliable. My .02, Russ
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,941
Likes: 240
From: Texas
I know a lot of people recommend the nipple cup o-rings and the top injector o-rings, but I have to agree with DieselTechRon. Most of the time they are a problem is when they have been "messed with" or if the rail was crammed on without lubricating the top of the injector. Just communicating my experience and perspective - as always, YMMV.
That said, know that a lot of 6.0L trucks are well over 200k miles, that could certainly change the data! So I guess I would ask first how many miles you have on the truck?
A recent thread about injectors show that MANY of them last over 200k miles without issue (and the implication is that the original o-rings have also lasted that long also).
That said, know that a lot of 6.0L trucks are well over 200k miles, that could certainly change the data! So I guess I would ask first how many miles you have on the truck?
A recent thread about injectors show that MANY of them last over 200k miles without issue (and the implication is that the original o-rings have also lasted that long also).
Fleet Owner
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 27,881
Likes: 3,595
If they are really loose and easily moved I don’t see an issue replacing the o rings, nipple cups and top injector o ring you just have to have the nipple cup retainer ring tool that centers the nipple when torqued to spec with a vise holding the oil rail. I’ve seen guys trying to tighten them on the tailgate flopping around while they wrench on it. The top injector seals get screwed up because people chisel on the c clip and end up scratching the tapered ring on top of the seal and it creates a micro channel to leak and get worse as a few thousand psi oil pressure flows through it. Working with the valve covers off in cab can’t be clean, I think that’s where we get the bearing and cylinder wall issues.
It may be enough for most people to describe the potential pitfalls of doing the work improperly, but then again it is hard to know exactly how the job is actually going to be completed - regardless of the advice. As an example -- I had a knowledgeable/capable person borrow a good FICM and return it fried. The damage wasn't even mentioned. When confronted, he didn't know what could have happened (probably TOTALLY avoidable simply by disconnecting the batteries before doing the installation or removal). We have all seen repair jobs go bad on the forums - dropped tools and parts, improper torquing, etc. To be honest, we all have probably gotten in a hurry and done some of that! Sometimes general forum advice makes things seem easy to even the beginning mechanics (that can be good, and also not-so-good).
Personally, I don't think that many people will have issues with the nipple cups being loose after 150k or even 200k miles - assuming a limited number of times with the rails being removed, no issues with overheating, and no fuel dilution of the oil.
For me, it would be a case-by-case decision.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,941
Likes: 240
From: Texas
I am an overthinker on these engines and usually replace “while I’m at it” for peace of mind. These things seem to nickel and dime you to death replacing one part here and there. I went with the HHC nipple cup kit and rented the special alignment socket to torque and center the retainer ring. No issues with them but my injector rebuild was a flop due to sloppy spool valve bores so Holder’s premium 175/30s went back in. I still have the spool valves and solenoids in ziplocs.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
I think every time something is worked there is a risk just from being disturbed.
There was a study decades ago in some SAE committee, either car or truck, but debris insertion during repairs was ranked the highest after poor air filtration. I wince evertime even the valve covers are removed.
When I went to High School one of my classmates was the son of a major builder in the area, they build thousands of homes. His father never had the oil changed in their cars, would just trade them in every two years.
There was a study decades ago in some SAE committee, either car or truck, but debris insertion during repairs was ranked the highest after poor air filtration. I wince evertime even the valve covers are removed.
When I went to High School one of my classmates was the son of a major builder in the area, they build thousands of homes. His father never had the oil changed in their cars, would just trade them in every two years.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,941
Likes: 240
From: Texas
Amen Jack. I’ve noticed over the years in the oil and gas industry that compressors and other equipment get in a groove and operate more reliably when left alone than tinkering with them and making adjustments all the time. The new guys never believe it until they witness it.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 27,881
Likes: 3,595
I am an overthinker on these engines and usually replace “while I’m at it” for peace of mind. These things seem to nickel and dime you to death replacing one part here and there. I went with the HHC nipple cup kit and rented the special alignment socket to torque and center the retainer ring. No issues with them but my injector rebuild was a flop due to sloppy spool valve bores so Holder’s premium 175/30s went back in. I still have the spool valves and solenoids in ziplocs.
The only thing we know intimately is our own vehicle and the work that we do personally. Clearly some people change the nipple cup o-rings and some don't. Some needed to do it and some didn't. Sometimes the work goes well and is successful and sometimes (as DTR documented), it doesn't. There is never a 100% answer. Since the conversation turned to our own trucks (sorry for my hijack OP), my oil rails have been off one time to do the upgraded dummy plugs and standpipes as preventative maintenance. Nothing was done with the upper injector o-rings (although the other o-rings and the copper washer were replaced). Currently at 220k on my truck and there is absolutely no problem - at least that I can detect. When I eventually change out my injectors, I may change the nipple cup o-rings, and I may not. The consequence of not changing them if they still appear good (ie potential failure in the future) is there, but doesn't bother me much. Personal decision, right-or wrong. The underlying assumption here is that they are still reasonably tight and are not sloppy loose as you appropriately mentioned above! I would probably have a different recommendation for someone else that was into the rails at say 250k miles - the risk/reward starts getting into a different category at that point. My 1997 7.3L started seeing a lot of "rubber parts" degradation and hardening at that time. Just my 2 cents.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,941
Likes: 240
From: Texas
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More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 552
Likes: 22
I've decided to start a thread detailing my journey to make my 6L reliable once again. I have owned the truck since new. I do not drive it more than once per week and that is usually just to keep it active. I bought it when I raced motorcycles in NH (I live in Maine). I honestly do not need a 3/4 ton diesel but after pricing out (even used) 1/2 gas trucks I can't justify spending that much money. Overall my truck has been pretty reliable with only wearable items needing attention except one bad FICM 7 yrs ago. More recently I am at the point where I will not take it to northern Maine in winter towing snowmobiles because I do not trust it to start after sitting in the cold. To date this is what I have done:
1. Installed a Scan Gauge- very helpful in identifying problems / potential problems.
2. install 2 new batteries
3. Noted I need a new FICM (will order this week)
4. Found parasitic draw on my system. Got it from .48A draw down to 6mA.
5. New 140a alt (installed last fall)
6. Checked / cleaned EGR valve (
7. Checked / cleaned EBP sensor and tube. Tube and sensor were 99% plugged up with only a very small hole to the sensor, still registered on Scan gauge but I suspect influenced operation
8. New degass bottle and cap
9. New glow plugs and harness on passenger side
I have not run the truck yet after the last 4 steps. I put a battery tester on my new batteries after a fresh charge and only got 829 and 833 CCA when they are rated at 850. THis was in a garage at 60 deg. Taking back to supplier for testing on their equipment beause I expected much higher than 850 in a heated garage.
Future tasks:
1. replace FICM (listed above)
2. Run bubble test on Degass bottle
3 Replace oil cooler (delta T noted on scan gauge indicates faulty cooler)
4. EGR delete (Maine does not include emission testing for inspection)
5. Turbo cleaning (may as well while its out of the truck)
6. Flush coolant system / install coolant filter
7. Have cylinder contribution test done at local diesel shop
If these steps get my truck reliable enough so that I trust it again I will also have new leather done for the interior and drive the truck another 100k miles.
If anybody sees something else I should be considering please say so.
.
1. Installed a Scan Gauge- very helpful in identifying problems / potential problems.
2. install 2 new batteries
3. Noted I need a new FICM (will order this week)
4. Found parasitic draw on my system. Got it from .48A draw down to 6mA.
5. New 140a alt (installed last fall)
6. Checked / cleaned EGR valve (
7. Checked / cleaned EBP sensor and tube. Tube and sensor were 99% plugged up with only a very small hole to the sensor, still registered on Scan gauge but I suspect influenced operation
8. New degass bottle and cap
9. New glow plugs and harness on passenger side
I have not run the truck yet after the last 4 steps. I put a battery tester on my new batteries after a fresh charge and only got 829 and 833 CCA when they are rated at 850. THis was in a garage at 60 deg. Taking back to supplier for testing on their equipment beause I expected much higher than 850 in a heated garage.
Future tasks:
1. replace FICM (listed above)
2. Run bubble test on Degass bottle
3 Replace oil cooler (delta T noted on scan gauge indicates faulty cooler)
4. EGR delete (Maine does not include emission testing for inspection)
5. Turbo cleaning (may as well while its out of the truck)
6. Flush coolant system / install coolant filter
7. Have cylinder contribution test done at local diesel shop
If these steps get my truck reliable enough so that I trust it again I will also have new leather done for the interior and drive the truck another 100k miles.
If anybody sees something else I should be considering please say so.
.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Obviously your build and the work the OP of this thread is doing are in completely different categories. If you hadn't already done them, it would be crazy for you to not replace the nipple cups o-rings, etc, with what you are doing. There are other o-rings (on plugs) in the oil rail. Some of them have failed on a very small number of people. Did you replace them? Those o-rings aren't available except by going to a hydraulic shop. Just not worth it IMO, but maybe it is in yours. People are different and have views as to their approach on maintenance, upgrades, etc. That is the one of the good things about the forum - we get to see a variety of opinions/approaches/etc,
The only thing we know intimately is our own vehicle and the work that we do personally. Clearly some people change the nipple cup o-rings and some don't. Some needed to do it and some didn't. Sometimes the work goes well and is successful and sometimes (as DTR documented), it doesn't. There is never a 100% answer. Since the conversation turned to our own trucks (sorry for my hijack OP), my oil rails have been off one time to do the upgraded dummy plugs and standpipes as preventative maintenance. Nothing was done with the upper injector o-rings (although the other o-rings and the copper washer were replaced). Nothing was done with the nipple cup or-rings/etc. Currently at 220k on my truck and there is absolutely no problem - at least that I can detect. When I eventually change out my injectors, I may change the nipple cup o-rings, and I may not. The consequence of not changing them if they still appear good (ie potential failure in the future) is there, but doesn't bother me much. Personal decision, right-or wrong. The underlying assumption here is that they are still reasonably tight and are not sloppy loose as you appropriately mentioned above! I would probably have a different recommendation for someone else that was into the rails at say 250k miles - the risk/reward starts getting into a different category at that point. My 1997 7.3L started seeing a lot of "rubber parts" degradation and hardening at that time. Just my 2 cents.
The only thing we know intimately is our own vehicle and the work that we do personally. Clearly some people change the nipple cup o-rings and some don't. Some needed to do it and some didn't. Sometimes the work goes well and is successful and sometimes (as DTR documented), it doesn't. There is never a 100% answer. Since the conversation turned to our own trucks (sorry for my hijack OP), my oil rails have been off one time to do the upgraded dummy plugs and standpipes as preventative maintenance. Nothing was done with the upper injector o-rings (although the other o-rings and the copper washer were replaced). Nothing was done with the nipple cup or-rings/etc. Currently at 220k on my truck and there is absolutely no problem - at least that I can detect. When I eventually change out my injectors, I may change the nipple cup o-rings, and I may not. The consequence of not changing them if they still appear good (ie potential failure in the future) is there, but doesn't bother me much. Personal decision, right-or wrong. The underlying assumption here is that they are still reasonably tight and are not sloppy loose as you appropriately mentioned above! I would probably have a different recommendation for someone else that was into the rails at say 250k miles - the risk/reward starts getting into a different category at that point. My 1997 7.3L started seeing a lot of "rubber parts" degradation and hardening at that time. Just my 2 cents.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
I'm in the same boat with one of my 6.0 trucks. I can't take it out of town because if it sits overnight, it needs to be plugged in to start. Everything checks out fine, except I don’t hear the injectors buzz, so I think it's the FICM. So I'm going to keep an eye on this thread to see how yours goes.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
I spent about an hour on the phone speaking to Ed from FICMREPAIR.COM today. Got A LOT of great information (I have 2 pages of notes). Pulled together a great comprehensive plan based on my wants & needs. He didn't try to sell me anything, just laid out facts that were highly beneficial to figuring out a logical path forward. I have a FICM on order, I'll keep this thread going until I have my truck where I need it to be in order to meet my needs. Hopefully others will find it useful..
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Installed a new FICM from ficmrepair.com last night. I bought the ultra with the Atlas 40 tune. Drove my truck down the interstate with my snowmobile trailer attached like I did 2 weeks ago. Fuel milage went from 9mpg to 15. On the way back ( I left my trailer ) I averaged over 20mgp cruising at 70mph. Throttle response is noticeably snappier as well. I am VERY pleased with the results. The new degass bottle and cover cured my coolant leak issue and cleaning the EBP tube and sensor improved turbo vein actuation.
One other thing, the truck starts much better and the "skip" (for lack of a better term) when cold is gone. So far, best $700 I have put into my truck.
One other thing, the truck starts much better and the "skip" (for lack of a better term) when cold is gone. So far, best $700 I have put into my truck.
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madhatt
6.0L Power Stroke Diesel
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Mar 13, 2014 05:05 PM