I'm not worried in the slightest, The very small about of slack caused from machining should bother the timing in the slightest. Maybe if you took it out of Fords spec for head thickness and deck height there could be a real issue.

 

Looks like an interesting project. Especially since I see this is being done in Billings where I am also located. I have a few things to share, but take them with a grain of salt as I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. There was some discussion above related to dynamic compression ratio. If it was me, I would target a DCR in the mid to high 8 range. I see in your original post that you are planning on using water/meth injection to try and combat high compression. I'm not sure how/where you were planning to inject water/meth, but I don't think you can inject in a single point out at the throttle body. The wet flow characteristics of an EFI manifold are terrible. I saw an episode of Engine Masters where they were testing water/meth injection versus an intercooler on a turboed engine. They looked at the air temperature for each intake runner. The front cylinders would get a cooling effect from the water/meth injection since they were closer to the throttle body, but the back runners showed little to no cooling due to the poor wet flow characteristics of the manifold. However, if you planned on injecting water/meth through the use of nozzles for each cylinder, you could probably get away with it.
Here is another thing that may be worth checking out. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/a-19...our-affection/ A few years back in Hot Rod, there was someone that built a cool Mustang II with a V10 in it. They built their own long runner high flowing intake manifold. The end results of the engine build were fairly impressive considering how stockish the engine was. It would be some work, but it may be worth it. Have fun.

 

Nice to see a fellow Montanan on the forums. Machine work is done so whatever the compression comes to thats what I have to deal with, Worst case i mix some go fast gas with pump. I agree having individual injectors for each runner would be very beneficial but I dont have the time with this engine to fab up the rails and drill&tap the manifold, but the way this is designed the runners are equal length and they all draw very close from the same location, the kicker with spraying at the throttle body is it gives more time for the water and meth to evaporate going through the intake, Its a common way to spray. But no individual injectors attached to a common rail would be ideal. Also dynamic compression in the 8 range would be about the stock ratio which I know I can go above atleast 1 point without any issues.

 

9:1 dynamic should not be a problem in Montana.
Maybe a hair more if your elevation is 5000 ft or more.

I'm at 7800 ft and have considered 9:1 dynamic ideal.

 

Here is some cam information that I found regarding the 2V V10.
Awhile back I personally checked 10 sets of cams-both NPI and PI from both cars and trucks just to verify the OEM specs. Duration and centerlines are the same,lift is the only difference.

Non-PI:
Intake .462" lift/201 @.050"
Exhaust .462" lift/208 @.050"
114 intake C/L
113 exhaust C/L

PI:
Intake .507" lift/200 @.050"
Exhaust .534" lift/210 @.050"
114 intake C/L
115 exhaust C/L
The duration and centerlines are so close that I'll say the slight differences seen are production tolerances.

This seems consistent with other information that I have seen presented. Using these figures for the stock 2V V10, I came up with DCRs ranging from 8.16 to 8.32. The range comes from me not knowing how many degrees of advance are ground into the cams. I assumed between 0 and 4 degrees.
Assuming that you are runnning 11.5:1 static and your cams are 10 degrees more than stock, that puts your DCR in the 9.88 to 10.11 range. That is personally more than I would want to try and run.
In order to hit 9:1 DCR at 11.5:1 static your cams would need to be in the 238 @ 0.050 range on the intake side.
Hope this information helps.

 

I like a little more compression

 

Yep that's about on point with what mine measured , My dynamic compression is higher due to the duration ground in but I have done some 4.6s for guys around here that get away with 10.7:1 static on pump with stage 1 cams. Overall I'm not worried about it, I think it will be a fun test and if first it doesnt run on pump I will look at doing some other changes to get what I want.

Also are you that guy I see running around with a V10 Triton windshield banner 😂

 

Hope you don't think I am questioning your knowledge by all of these posts, but I kind of nerd out on engine theory and engine match and all of this may help someone at some point.
For your 4.6 example above with Crower's Stage 1 cams (not sure whose you used), that would be a DCR of 9.45.

I'm not running around with a V10 Triton banner, but I do run around in a 2005 F-250 V10 with JBA shorty headers, SCT tuner and K&N cold air intake and a big Ranchhand bumper. It is Montana after all.

Do you work at a machine shop here in town?

 

Yep I work with both the main engine machine shops in Billings.

And yeah they run a little less then I would have but the 5.4 and 6.8 have the benefit of a longer stroke so the piston spends a longer period of time at the tdc which helps with detonation. Talking with my tuner friend awhile back he said it shouldnt be an issue. Modular engines do pretty well with high compression with the high swirl combustion chamber and good valve to chamber size along with good spark plug placement being at close to the center and between both valves, only thing that really hurts them is lack of quench with the 5.4 and 6.8. I got a hand full of tricks up my sleeve to try and make this work without race fuel and im hoping the result will be one torquey gasser. Compression is the best way to make power if everything is equal because it doesnt care about rpm or throttle position.

 

A few good tricks for getting away with higher compression is running a colder spark plug (as you probably already know)

Increasing the valve seat margins so the valves have more contact and dont get as hot basically acting as their own ignition source (primarily the exhaust valve)

Good exhaust scavenging to help with making the cylinder temps colder before the next air charge comes in.

High swirl to keep the fuel atomized and hot spots from forming.

None siemese cylinders will help since theres more contact with coolant (as seen with the new 7.3 gas engine)

Improved piston heat transfer to the rings then cylinder walls

Basically an engine with good cylinder cooling between ignition cycles will do better with higher compression, what tends to cause problems is hard driving will heat soak the cylinder and generate hot spots so the cylinder temps climb high enough to let detonation occur. The quicker you cool between cycles the better off you are.

Detonation in a healthy engine just doesnt happen right away from the moment you start the vehicle unless your running a bad mixture or horribly high compression. Thats why a lot of the time people get pinging under heavy load for long periods of time (pulling a trailer up a hill or doing extended WOT pulls)

I can sit here all day and go over things that can impact how much compression you can run, But one of my main goals for street and race engines is dialing in the maximum compression possible for the maximum efficiency possible. For right now this is a trial run to see what happens since not many people have actually tested it with these engines. If it doesnt work I will fine tune certain things to make it work without taking shortcuts. I have barely have an idea how it will turn out but thats what makes gambling and building engines so fun

 

Sounds like a fun project. Hope all of your tricks work. Otherwise your tuner friend will be pulling a bunch of timing out of the part throttle, low rpm, high load part of the timing map. I hope it runs good for you and keep us up to date with your results.

 

Yep pretty much although I'd run race gas before that point 😂 and I have some pics pretty soon

 

100 LL
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I'm going to be very intrested in cylinder pressures.

What is your elevation?

I've noticed cylinder pressure losses of 20% at 7800 ft.

My thoughts are that static compression is irrelevant if there is not enough air to compress to a good cylinder pressure. That's where dynamic compression comes into play.

Static CR is just a geometric ratio of inital and final volumes.

Dynamic CR factors in how much air and fuel is in cylinder once it's sealed up.

Example: 14:1 static with no air/fuel in cylinder will produce no pressure.

Heavy vehicles will detonate/ping at about 200 psi on pump gas.

If I were at 11.5: with stock type cams I would be putting in 42 to 60 lb injectors and a 400 plus lph fuel pump and running E85 only.

THAT WOULD BE A MONSTER! And E85 can take the pressure without detination. Plus no need for water meth with E85

In my personal opinion this build is very well suited to E85. 12 to 12.5:1 would be ideal but 11.5: 1 with stock type cams is also in the green for E85. I consider E85 a cheap race gas.

 

I'm interested to see how this plays out. I had a V-10 in my 2000 F250 and the engine repairs were way more than the truck was worth so it was time to get rid of it. But I loved the V-10 but not the dreaded lack of spark plug threads, which is what did this one in, broke part off the spark plug, got in the cylinder, then must have bent a valve and then no compression in that cylinder. I'm in Billings as well...