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So, we seem to have a resolution to this one... but not what one might expect. Rather than going forward, we went backward.
My dad still had the old distributor and it's vacuum advance. The shop that rebuilt the engine apparently couldn't do anything with it, so they put a new one one and, as you know, hi-jinx ensued.
He found the old one that had always worked just fine with the truck, stashed away. He opened up it's vacuum advance to look... because in 65 years of working on cars, it'd never crossed his mind they could be opened. The diaphragm seems fine ( for now). So he put it back together, plopped it in the truck and... voila! The tach reads well, and the fouling is gone. Sooo... end result is new coil, and a 48-year-old distributor with who-knows-how-old points and condenser.
...Speaking of which: we were trying to pinpoint what the original distributor is. He's not sure if it's original. We weren't sure of a model number, or if it even went to an F-250. There are numbers for individual components, though. I'm looking for the original vacuum advance, too. It has a straight arm. I found something for sale on macsautoparts.com from 1959. Not sure if it's the same.
The Distributor body has this info: FEU-12127 / N FoMoCo and the number 804 below. On the other side of the body, is FEU-12131-A. The plate inside has 905700
The vacuum advance: when opening it, the underside, had FEU-12131-A . And the housing had FEU-12121-A ... It seems hard to find, because most of the vac. advances out there have the curved arm. This one is straight.
All these FEUs... they don't match the naming convention. but I've seen some suggesting that FEU was indeed used by Ford early on. Could this be a 1957 distributor on our hands? What the heck??!
So, we seem to have a resolution to this one... but not what one might expect. Rather than going forward, we went backward.
My dad still had the old distributor and it's vacuum advance. The shop that rebuilt the engine apparently couldn't do anything with it, so they put a new one one and, as you know, hi-jinx ensued.
He found the old one that had always worked just fine with the truck, stashed away. He opened up it's vacuum advance to look... because in 65 years of working on cars, it'd never crossed his mind they could be opened. The diaphragm seems fine ( for now). So he put it back together, plopped it in the truck and... voila! The tach reads well, and the fouling is gone. Sooo... end result is new coil, and a 48-year-old distributor with who-knows-how-old points and condenser.
...Speaking of which: we were trying to pinpoint what the original distributor is. He's not sure if it's original. We weren't sure of a model number, or if it even went to an F-250. There are numbers for individual components, though. I'm looking for the original vacuum advance, too. It has a straight arm. I found something for sale on macsautoparts.com from 1959. Not sure if it's the same.
The Distributor body has this info: FEU-12127 / N FoMoCo and the number 804 below. On the other side of the body, is FEU-12131-A. The plate inside has 905700
The vacuum advance: when opening it, the underside, had FEU-12131-A . And the housing had FEU-12121-A ... It seems hard to find, because most of the vac. advances out there have the curved arm. This one is straight.
All these FEUs... they don't match the naming convention. but I've seen some suggesting that FEU was indeed used by Ford early on. Could this be a 1957 distributor on our hands? What the heck??!
Pics:
FEU 12127-N is the DIST ASSY ID NO.
PREFIX FEU was assigned to the 1958-59 model years 292-332-352. This complete ID is not in the PASS CAR MPC so it must be truck only (I do not have the period TRUCK MPC). The 12131 is the DIST HOUSING CASTING ID NO.
Listen. That DISTRIBUTOR is valuable. When FORD first went with dual advance (1957) it used an upper breaker plate that rotated on roller ***** instead of a hinged breaker plate (1959/ ).. The correct vacuum advance is B7A 12370-A and you can still find them NOS along with the special breaker plate.
What you dad took apart was the shim adjustment of the vacuum advance (common early style). That is how the vacuum advance curve was adjusted.
hmmm.. a new question, for those who've put on adjustable vacuum advances...
Pops went to NAPA and got an adjustable vacuum advance. (yes, even though he's got that good old washer-adjusted type. He's got the newer NAPA distributor in his hands, trying to understand the papers that came with this new vacuum advance. It shows 20 years worth of Tag IDs, and how many turns to adjust it for each. But his distributor doesn't have any tag on it - just the 12127. I suggested he go by the D0T-etc-etc value, since that's around the year of the truck. (1970 F-250 with 360 engine)
But, anyone had experience on what works best for those? I vote go to 3 turns, and fine-tune from there.
He's retired so... too much free time and tinkering with fire instead of leaving it alone. hehe!
hmmm.. a new question, for those who've put on adjustable vacuum advances...
Pops went to NAPA and got an adjustable vacuum advance. (yes, even though he's got that good old washer-adjusted type. He's got the newer NAPA distributor in his hands, trying to understand the papers that came with this new vacuum advance. It shows 20 years worth of Tag IDs, and how many turns to adjust it.
But his distributor doesn't have any tag on it - just the 12127.
The dizzy ID number you posted in post # 46 is FEU-12127-N .. This cross references to: B9AF-12127-D (replaced B8A-12127-K) = 1958/59 Ford/Thunderbird 352.
oh, sorry... not that one. He's trying to figure out for the new NAPA distributor he had in there before going back to the '58 distributor ( I'd hoped he'd stop there and leave well enough alone.)
hmmm.. a new question, for those who've put on adjustable vacuum advances...
Pops went to NAPA and got an adjustable vacuum advance. (yes, even though he's got that good old washer-adjusted type. He's got the newer NAPA distributor in his hands, trying to understand the papers that came with this new vacuum advance. It shows 20 years worth of Tag IDs, and how many turns to adjust it for each. But his distributor doesn't have any tag on it - just the 12127. I suggested he go by the D0T-etc-etc value, since that's around the year of the truck. (1970 F-250 with 360 engine)
But, anyone had experience on what works best for those? I vote go to 3 turns, and fine-tune from there.
He's retired so... too much free time and tinkering with fire instead of leaving it alone. hehe!
Important thing to keep in mind is the mechanical (centrifugal) advance and the vacuum advance are completely independent systems and work basically opposite of each other. They do work together in the sense that (mostly) when one is advancing the ignition timing, the other is retarding. They complement each other.
When the mechanical ignition timing - that is the initial + distributor timing is setup, don't mess with it again. You guys already did this anyway with a few test drives &c., as previously mentioned right? Re-connect vacuum advance. If you read the instructions (I know, I know) that ships with the vacuum cans they recommend starting out with it completely advanced all the way. Fully clockwise in most units. Back off 2 turns at a time as required, from max advance, when test driving on the road.
What you're looking for here is rattle or ping only when cruising and/or coming off part throttle acceleration, this is unlike what you're looking for when for setting the mechanical advance. Again it's important to emphasize the initial + distributor timing curve should be completed before re-connecting or trying to tune the vacuum advance canister. Two different systems. Don't take out or retard the mechanical ignition advance timing to compensate for a mis-tuned vacuum canister, in other words. Very common mistake.
hmmm.. a new question, for those who've put on adjustable vacuum advances...
Pops went to NAPA and got an adjustable vacuum advance. (yes, even though he's got that good old washer-adjusted type. He's got the newer NAPA distributor in his hands, trying to understand the papers that came with this new vacuum advance. It shows 20 years worth of Tag IDs, and how many turns to adjust it for each. But his distributor doesn't have any tag on it - just the 12127. I suggested he go by the D0T-etc-etc value, since that's around the year of the truck. (1970 F-250 with 360 engine)
But, anyone had experience on what works best for those? I vote go to 3 turns, and fine-tune from there.
He's retired so... too much free time and tinkering with fire instead of leaving it alone. hehe!
A rebuilt (supposedly) distributor will usually have the original ID Nos ground off as the distributor is rebuilt with varying timing curve(s) to fit many applications. The ADJ Advance Canister he bought is most likely a one-fit-all and within that INSTRUCTION SHEET will be the curve needed to adjust to by the DIST ID NO, which the re-builder decided to remove. The only thing you can do (other than taking it somewhere and have it professionally curved) is to try to find the curve for the year of the engine application along with that DIST ID, set the vacuum curve to that spec, and hope for the best.
BTW - Most rebuilds are spit and polish and assembled with inferior IGN parts. If a distributor actually needs a complete rebuild ($$$), it is most likely thrown into a barrel and not actually worked on until a core shortage.
You guys are beating yourselves to death here. If you don't have a timing light, timing tape and tach, it is all guess work.
Important thing to keep in mind is the mechanical (centrifugal) advance and the vacuum advance are completely independent systems and work basically opposite of each other. They do work together in the sense that (mostly) when one is advancing the ignition timing, the other is retarding. They complement each other.
Are you describing a DUAL ADVANCE DIST or a LOAD-O-MATIC DIST? The only time a DUAL ADVANCE DIST advances and retards is with a DUAL DIAPHRAGM ADV CANISTER (IMCO or PVS controlled).
Are you describing a DUAL ADVANCE DIST or a LOAD-O-MATIC DIST? The only time a DUAL ADVANCE DIST advances and retards is with a DUAL DIAPHRAGM ADV CANISTER (IMCO or PVS controlled).
LOL!!! No I'm not talking about a LOM.
Trust me Gus, any centrifugal type distributor w/vacuum advance both advances and retards the timing depending on the RPM and load. They work independently of each other. The vacuum advance system is based on engine load only (manifold vacuum signal) while the centrifugal is based on RPM.
Well, the name is not Gus and you need to study up on your theory.
Really. Is it your contention that a distributor does not advance and retard the ignition timing? That's what you wrote. If that's not what you meant, then you'll have to write clearer.
I can explain how it works, but I can't make you understand it.
Anyhoo, I hope the OP finds the information practical and useful versus people wanting to slog off into the weeds and derail a thread on this stuff.
Yeah... so, back to our regularly scheduled program on distributors, vacuum advances and dads that tinker too much.
To clarify a couple things, first... as they've been brought up a few times:
1. Yes, we have a timing light and yes we've used it.
2. Yes, we have a tach.
3. Yes, my dad has tuned it with the vac advance off.
I should say, he was a little justified in trying different things. He had the old '58 distributor in there, and it worked, but the afore-mentioned timing light showed things moving about a little, and he said that the plates in the distributor were maybe a little looser than they should be (or the shaft - it is a 60-year-old distributor. The timing chain is fine - it's brand new) I think that's why he threw the new NAPA distributor back in, and replaced the Chinese one-size-fits-all vacuum advance with a new adjustable advance that he'd got from NAPA.
After a day of frustration, it appears he's dialed it back in. The truck seems happiest with the new adjustable vacuum advance set to four turns out from seated. Not perfect, but it works.
(To clarify, there may be other issues at play, as we're dealing with an engine that was rebuilt by a shop that has proven to do shoddy work.)
If he gets another wild hair, I'll let you know. But I'm gambling the new Pertronix II I've got sitting here will end this story, once and for all.
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