EMULSIFIERS VS. DEMULSIFIERS: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CONTROL WATER IN DIESEL FUEL? - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

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EMULSIFIERS VS. DEMULSIFIERS: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CONTROL WATER IN DIESEL FUEL?

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EMULSIFIERS VS. DEMULSIFIERS: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CONTROL WATER IN DIESEL FUEL?

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  #1  
Old 06-10-2018, 01:35 PM
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EMULSIFIERS VS. DEMULSIFIERS: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CONTROL WATER IN DIESEL FUEL?

I decided to start a new thread on the subject of EMULSIFICATION VS. DEMULSIFICATION. While I know that there are threads on what diesel fuel additive to run and that there are different opinions, I felt there was relevant information on this matter that members here may find helpful or useful. The article I linked here was sent to me on a 6.7 Powerstroke Facebook page. I've decided to pass this on to you guys for INFORMATION ONLY. It straightened me out on the explanation of the product that I use on every tank fill up. I didn't realize that I was using an emulsifier. This isn't this product that I currently and have been using. I've have mentioned it before on other threads here in case anyone wanted to research it. In order to maintain a civil post and also so I won't be accused of being a shill or that I'm trying to push a product, I won't name the product I use. Only if someone wants the name after reading this or is interested in it. I've tried to make videos of the product by myself, but doing it with your phone is not the best way to do it. I plan on a later date to make a video or two and to challenge anyone to make a video of their product that they use and post it up. The article is here. The page that it is on is here.

Again, this is for INFORMATION ONLY as I found this article useful and some others may also.
 
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Old 06-10-2018, 08:26 PM
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Interesting read. Left me with more questions though.......

I have been using Ford's PM22A, witch I believe I read somewhere on FTE is a demulsifier, but I am not sure. So far has been good to me, but I buy from a station that is by several large companies with diesel fleets that buy there so their fuel turn over rate is high. Will need to divulge into this further when I have more time,
 
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:20 PM
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As convincing as the article may sound, unfortunately it's not informative. It's just a marketing ploy and it's full of misinformation that can cause diesel owners harm to their engines.

Ford and most other manufacturers specifically state to NOT use an emulsifier. I would trust engineers that design and build these engines over any additive company's marketing department. If emulsifiers actually worked, Ford's PM22 would be an emulsifier.
 
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
If emulsifiers actually worked, Ford's PM22 would be an emulsifier.
So I was correct in my recollection that pm-22a is a demulsifier?
 
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:04 AM
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I believe that PM-22 is only listed as a cetane booster. I do not recall any claims by them or the company who makes it for Ford as being anything else.
 
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Old 06-11-2018, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Boaterguy View Post
So I was correct in my recollection that pm-22a is a demulsifier?
It is not.

While Ford doesn't specifically warn against the use of demulsifiers, they also don't recommend them and PM22 does not contain demulsifying agents.
 
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
It is not.

While Ford doesn't specifically warn against the use of demulsifiers, they also don't recommend them and PM22 does not contain demulsifying agents.
Originally Posted by Pocket View Post
As convincing as the article may sound, unfortunately it's not informative. It's just a marketing ploy and it's full of misinformation that can cause diesel owners harm to their engines.

Ford and most other manufacturers specifically state to NOT use an emulsifier. I would trust engineers that design and build these engines over any additive company's marketing department. If emulsifiers actually worked, Ford's PM22 would be an emulsifier.
Not trying to nit pick here, but what exactly are you trying to say here? To not use either? And I don't know as much as the Ford Powerstroke engineers. No where near.

I also found this article which I think was interesting because it has name brand additives of both types, demulsifiers and emulsifiers. I am providing this because the test lists the results of the wear scar test which I will use in the next sentence.

This is what it says in my 2016 Diesel Supplement manual. I understand why they are concerned about alcohol that would probably affect the lubricity of the ULSD which already has reduced lubricating value due to reduction of sulfur. My additive has a lubricant in it. I've seen the lab test results of the additive I use. There were two tests done with an average wear scar of 347.5 microns. The only additive to beat it in the article was the Opti-Lube XPD with a wear scar of 317.

Like I said before, I do not use the EZ Oil products. But if you would have looked further, they sell both types of additives.


 
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Overkill2 View Post
Not trying to nit pick here, but what exactly are you trying to say here? To not use either? And I don't know as much as the Ford Powerstroke engineers. No where near.

I also found this article which I think was interesting because it has name brand additives of both types, demulsifiers and emulsifiers. I am providing this because the test lists the results of the wear scar test which I will use in the next sentence.

This is what it says in my 2016 Diesel Supplement manual. I understand why they are concerned about alcohol that would probably affect the lubricity of the ULSD which already has reduced lubricating value due to reduction of sulfur. My additive has a lubricant in it. I've seen the lab test results of the additive I use. There were two tests done with an average wear scar of 347.5 microns. The only additive to beat it in the article was the Opti-Lube XPD with a wear scar of 317.

Like I said before, I do not use the EZ Oil products. But if you would have looked further, they sell both types of additives.
What I'm saying is to use products that Ford recommends... ie PM22 or equivalent, where equivalent means chemically similar to PM22.

The article link is the Spicer test from 2007. Since that time most additive makers have changed their products, so consider that study outdated.

Just something to keep in mind, Opti-Lube XPD may have scored well back in 2007, but I would never put that product in my truck or any common rail diesel. It is not chemically similar to PM22 and contains a very high amount of alcohol that Ford specifically warns against using. The Opti-Lube Summer Plus is chemically similar to PM22 and is safe to use.

And for more information, here's a post I put up a while back that Ford puts in the workshop manual for dealer technicians. I circled where it repeatedly warns against emulsifiers and high alcohol content additives. Read here.

If Ford is sending that out to dealerships and their technicians, then they mean business when it comes to improper additives.

Hopefully this helps to clarify things a bit more.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:00 AM
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I appreciate that link. Thank you.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:36 PM
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Thanks Pocket for the link,Very Informative!
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:25 PM
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Best way to avoid water in the fuel is go to high volume stations. There is only one station in my small town I will use. This is the same station the local Ford dealer uses to put fuel in the new trucks. I do not trust any of the other stations to have a high enough volume to avoid water in fuel.
 
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:36 AM
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I have to admit that I now know more about the concepts of emulsification and demulsification than when I first posted this thread. When I posted this thread up, I stated that the additive I use is an emulsifier but I now stand CORRECTED. It is neither an emulsifier or demulsifier. I will explain but first I want to address my concerns when I became a first time diesel truck buyer.

Being the type of guy that I am, I research everything so I can be a better educated consumer, I looked into the fuel that we have to use for the newer trucks. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel does not have the lubricating effects that Low Sulfur Diesel or regular diesel had from way back. From what I understand, the very process of refining the fuel into ULSD increases it's ability to hold water. Also removing the sulfur, which in itself is not a lubricant but part of the package, removes the fuel's ability to lubricate the fuel system. So I wanted something to add lubrication back into the fuel.


Another concern of mine was living in a region that gets colder weather in the winter. From researching ULSD and learning that it contains more waxes and could promote more gelling in colder weather, I wanted an anti gel product. I also learned that the new fuel deteriorates quicker than the older fuel. From what I've learned, ULSD is a 90 day fuel at best. I know everyone talks of getting fuel at a station with a high turn over rate, but how do you know if the last tanker that came through with an older load of fuel? You don't. You don't know how long it took from the time the fuel was refined into ULSD to when it got to the fuel station where you bought it. I know that the petroleum companies are required to add additives such as lubricants, but how do you know that the fuel wasn't contaminated by a different fuel that went through the pipeline before the ULSD? Most gasoline and diesel fuel supplies are delivered to the marketplace by pipelines from refineries to local distribution centers. Quite simply, I didn't trust the fuel.


Now back to emulsification and demulsification. An emulsifier starts the process in which an emulsion is formed, an emulsion being a liquid containing fine droplets of another liquid without forming a solution. And a demulsifier is used to break down (an emulsion) into separate substances incapable of re-forming the emulsion that was broken down. With a petroleum emulsifier for ULSD, it breaks the water down into smaller particles but the water is still there out of solution, hence causing a problem in the injection system by exposing it to said water. With a petroleum demulsifier, it breaks down the emulsion of the water and fuel. Instead of being fine particles in the fuel, the water will form into another liquid in fuel(water) in the bottom of the fuel tank or in our case, maybe in the DFCM (diesel fuel conditioning module; fuel filter, fuel water separator, lift pump) where a large amount of water may over power the DFCM and get pumped to the HPFP causing damage to the system.

The product I use is NOT petroleum based. I buy it at my local Advance Auto. It is not an emulsifier or a demulsifier. What makes the product I use unique is that it breaks down the water in the fuel down to smaller than a micron. It permanently bonds itself to the water molecule, totally encapsulating it with a burnable organic compound never to fall out of solution again. As the engine runs, the encapsulated water is harmlessly burned with the fuel, and cleans the combustion chamber. It is a multifunctional product that nobody else produces. Not only does it address the moisture problem when it comes to preventing damage to the fuel system, by taking water out of the equation, it also prevents gelling of ULSD in colder climates. It has a cetane booster (1.5 to 2 points), combustion improver, lubricant, cleaner and prevents microbe growth.


The product was first invented by two organic chemists in 1965 here in Western New York. It was first used as a boiler water treatment product by boiler operators in the area. They used heavy bunker fuels in the boilers and had problems with fuel tanks filling up with heavy sludge and water. This caused the loss of fuel storage capacity. No existing chemical fuel treatment could dissolve the sludge and remove the water. They started the development of a chemical formulation that would solve this problem. It was formulated to chemically combine with water, creating a combustible compound, and put that combustible compound into full and permanent solution in the fuel. It contained a powerful solvent that dissolved the sludge, and integrated it back into the useful fuel. It had a strong stabilizer to keep the different fuel components combined and fresh for up to two years. It became popular and was used by hospitals, schools, factories, Great Lakes freighters, and tankers. Heavy fuel users of all types discovered how well it worked and relied upon it to keep their fuel storage systems functioning at full capacity. Once the heavy bunker fuels were phased out due to the EPA, they had to refine the product to work with diesel fuel and #2 heating oil.


The product has been around for awhile. For the record, I am not affiliated with this company nor am I selling it or getting any revenue. I just believe in the product. I am a local police officer of 23 years who loves his truck and uses the product at every tank fill up. I kept the name out of this because of the pervasive attitude of "He must be getting paid for this," etc... around here. All I want to do is provide information that there is a product out there that does what the petroleum products cannot. That's all. I have tested this product myself and have seen how it works. I plan on making videos to show what it does and post here. For information only.





 

Last edited by Overkill2; 06-16-2018 at 03:30 AM. Reason: add to post
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:39 AM
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I also apologize about the lack of space between my paragraphs because it kept on posting up like that no matter what I did.

**EDIT when I added to the post, it spaced out the paragraphs like it was supposed to.
 

Last edited by Overkill2; 06-16-2018 at 03:32 AM. Reason: EDIT
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:08 AM
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If your not willing to share the name, why waste the effort talking about it?
 
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Superdave71 View Post
If your not willing to share the name, why waste the effort talking about it?
I ain't skeered... Seriously, I wanted to keep the name out of it because it's already been falsely labeled as an emulsifier by people who didn't look into it fully. As soon as someone recommends something that the forum hasn't seen or heard of, you're a salesman. I have seen the attitudes on the Filter Mags I use. Guys get real defensive real quick over nothing but me trying to pass on info to people who would like to look into it. I was hoping someone would ask.

I have mentioned it before in other posts and it's K-100. Thanks for asking. I'm not here to sell anything. I use it every tank full. I made a contact in the company and anytime I email the dude, he gets back to me, the little guy buying a bottle or two every once in awhile. Not a trucking company who buys it by the barrel. That says a lot to me. My 2 cents. Take it or leave it...
 

Last edited by Overkill2; 06-16-2018 at 10:44 AM. Reason: add to post
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