Starting problem
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
Starting problem
I bought a project truck. 1966 f100 3 on the tree.
When i first tried to start it it did not have spark. I replaced the points and condenser and it started but the water pump was vibrating, so i shut it down and replace the pump.
Using a battery and jump pack, so battery is not the problem.
Clean new fuel in a portable container.
The next time i started it the carb was leaking, so i shut it down to rebuild the car.
I rebuilt the carb, but it will not start. It wants to, but wont.
There is fuel in the bowl, i hear the fuel squirt when i push the pedal.
I put a spark tester on one plug and i see spark.
I know this has ben discussed a million times. but what am i missing?
Thanks
When i first tried to start it it did not have spark. I replaced the points and condenser and it started but the water pump was vibrating, so i shut it down and replace the pump.
Using a battery and jump pack, so battery is not the problem.
Clean new fuel in a portable container.
The next time i started it the carb was leaking, so i shut it down to rebuild the car.
I rebuilt the carb, but it will not start. It wants to, but wont.
There is fuel in the bowl, i hear the fuel squirt when i push the pedal.
I put a spark tester on one plug and i see spark.
I know this has ben discussed a million times. but what am i missing?
Thanks
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
Try the old condenser first.
Just to be clear that everyone is on the same page when talking about spark. It needs a good spark, for example the coil wire should jump at least 1/2" air gap during cranking when terminal held near ground. Color of spark is disgnostic, bluish-white is OK, reddish-yellow is not. This proves out basically everything to the coil and part of the distributor. Now try same with a plug. Should be a bright fat spark. That tells us the rotor & cap is probably OK.
Have mercy on the battery, solenoid relay, starter etc, always charge the battery back up to 100% if engine won't start, and limit the cranking time to a few seconds at a time or it will end up smoking the windings. Let it cool down for 5 or 10 minutes in between. Hardly anybody does this, but they get real good at swapping out starters all the time.
Just to be clear that everyone is on the same page when talking about spark. It needs a good spark, for example the coil wire should jump at least 1/2" air gap during cranking when terminal held near ground. Color of spark is disgnostic, bluish-white is OK, reddish-yellow is not. This proves out basically everything to the coil and part of the distributor. Now try same with a plug. Should be a bright fat spark. That tells us the rotor & cap is probably OK.
Have mercy on the battery, solenoid relay, starter etc, always charge the battery back up to 100% if engine won't start, and limit the cranking time to a few seconds at a time or it will end up smoking the windings. Let it cool down for 5 or 10 minutes in between. Hardly anybody does this, but they get real good at swapping out starters all the time.
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
ok. I went and tested the spark. it is not a fat spark, it seems weak.
Additionally, for the first time, turning the key off would not shut down the engine turning over. I had to disconnect the jump pack to stop the engine.
So I think i need more help than anticipated at first.
Thanks for the help.
Additionally, for the first time, turning the key off would not shut down the engine turning over. I had to disconnect the jump pack to stop the engine.
So I think i need more help than anticipated at first.
Thanks for the help.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
Hm, OK, how do the cables look to starter, block, etc? If they are original they should be replaced. Bad cables and connections can choke off the ignition too, any juice left over is hogged by the starter after being lost in the corrosion.
Starter relay itself needs clean ground. Can try smacking it with a mallet if it happens again, but make sure battery is at 100%, the contacts weld themselves. Take it easy on the starter & relay as mentioned...
Starter relay itself needs clean ground. Can try smacking it with a mallet if it happens again, but make sure battery is at 100%, the contacts weld themselves. Take it easy on the starter & relay as mentioned...
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
Ok.
I gave the solenoid a couple of taps and then hooked up the battery.
All is back to somewhat normal. Still no start. I am going to adjust the points.
The points and condenser are three weeks old and the truck started after i installed them.
What should i check after the points for a weak spark. Should i replace the condenser again?
Thanks
I gave the solenoid a couple of taps and then hooked up the battery.
All is back to somewhat normal. Still no start. I am going to adjust the points.
The points and condenser are three weeks old and the truck started after i installed them.
What should i check after the points for a weak spark. Should i replace the condenser again?
Thanks
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
The replacement condensers on the market today are worthless. Not saying this is definitely the problem here but it would not be unusual at all for it to fail right out of the box or soon after. If it is shorted there will be no spark, if it is open/intermttent it may run, but poorly.
Check for spark from the coil wire terminal to engine, like an unpainted bolt or casting, whatever, should jump at least 1/2" with a strong
flash of blue or bluish-white color. A thin red or yellow spark is no good.
Check for spark from the coil wire terminal to engine, like an unpainted bolt or casting, whatever, should jump at least 1/2" with a strong
flash of blue or bluish-white color. A thin red or yellow spark is no good.
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
I cleaned off all my grounds and wires from the starter to the battery terminals.
I readjusted the points to .025 - a number i found at some reliable place on line.
I then tried to start it and it. It fired up in less than one second. It idled for about 2 seconds, then stalled. I tried a few times after to get it going again, but no luck. I did give the system break so i dont fry anything.
I am going to try to start it in the dark tonight to see if there are sparks grounding out.
It has fuel. I see it squirting in. I also poured some fuel in the carb and nothing happened.
Thanks
I readjusted the points to .025 - a number i found at some reliable place on line.
I then tried to start it and it. It fired up in less than one second. It idled for about 2 seconds, then stalled. I tried a few times after to get it going again, but no luck. I did give the system break so i dont fry anything.
I am going to try to start it in the dark tonight to see if there are sparks grounding out.
It has fuel. I see it squirting in. I also poured some fuel in the carb and nothing happened.
Thanks
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Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
First try setting the points gap .015", could use a matchbook cover in a pinch. .025" is too much, that might be the spec for a lawnmower!
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 6
From: Great White North
Tedster9 is giving some good advice here. This is the exact problem that was in a previous thread after a guy washed his slick. It ended up being his brand new condenser which he replaced with his original. A condenser is actually a capacitor and we need to find out what the correct capacitance should be so that we can buy from an electronics supplier.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,311
Likes: 97
From: Waterloo, Iowa
The standard value available today is 0.22uF @ 600 volts, often metalized polypropylene film. Will work just fine but some are pretty chunky, they might not fit inside the distributor. Mallory used to install theirs outside the distributor, on the side. If you dig around Mouser or DigiKey should find one that will fit inside. Ford spec'd 0.21 to 0.25 uF (MFD) iirc. They didn't spec a voltage rating, but 400 volts would probably be about right.
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
I cleans off the new points i had installed with fine sandpaper, this did the trick to get the truck started and ran for about 20 seconds, then i noticed the carb was spilling fuel out. I will need to adjust the float again to try to stop this from happening. I will do that soon. thanks for the help.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,967
Likes: 2
From: Philly Suburbs, PA
i suggest going to electronic ignition. it's cheap and easy, and you won't have to deal with points again. and buy the coil that goes with it. you will have a good spark after that. did wonders for my old girl.
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
Thanks for the feedback and i will go to electronic ignition when i get this running enough to know i have a good engine.
I took off the carb and adjusted the float again to limit the amount of gas coming in. I turned the carb upside down and blew into the fuel intake line to check and see if air would enter (simulate the bowl shutting off). No air, so i know the needle will shut off the fuel flow.
I then reinstalled the carb and the truck started in an instant once the fuel reached the carb. But in about 15 seconds, i could see the fuel coming out of the carb and then the truck stalled, I believe it flooded?
I guess i will adjust the bowl again, but the range of motion is getting small on the float. Any suggestions?
Thanks
I took off the carb and adjusted the float again to limit the amount of gas coming in. I turned the carb upside down and blew into the fuel intake line to check and see if air would enter (simulate the bowl shutting off). No air, so i know the needle will shut off the fuel flow.
I then reinstalled the carb and the truck started in an instant once the fuel reached the carb. But in about 15 seconds, i could see the fuel coming out of the carb and then the truck stalled, I believe it flooded?
I guess i will adjust the bowl again, but the range of motion is getting small on the float. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 49
I am still having a problem starting this engine.
I now have new points, another new condenser, new cap, new plugs, new rotor. I have good spark. Better than before i installed the new condenser a few days ago.
The carburetor is freshly rebuilt by a rebuild company, not leaking fuel.
I know i am at TDC for cylinder 1.
Checked compression last week 135 for all 6 cylinders
I started it for the first time just now. This is the first time with the new condenser. It idled for about 25 seconds, but the low idle let it die. I could not adjust it fast enough.
I tried to restart it, but no go. I did spray some starting fluid, but still would not start. I did hear a backfire
It will kinda run if i keep turning the key. But not a complete start.
I now have new points, another new condenser, new cap, new plugs, new rotor. I have good spark. Better than before i installed the new condenser a few days ago.
The carburetor is freshly rebuilt by a rebuild company, not leaking fuel.
I know i am at TDC for cylinder 1.
Checked compression last week 135 for all 6 cylinders
I started it for the first time just now. This is the first time with the new condenser. It idled for about 25 seconds, but the low idle let it die. I could not adjust it fast enough.
I tried to restart it, but no go. I did spray some starting fluid, but still would not start. I did hear a backfire
It will kinda run if i keep turning the key. But not a complete start.
Last edited by benbuilder; Mar 4, 2018 at 09:06 AM. Reason: note on new plugs