No, I haven't. But if someone will give me that deal on the buying end, I'm surely going to take it.

I also suspect a lot of folks posting on here are telling tales as to how good a deal they really got...

 

Paging Mr. Frantz, Mr. Frantz........ Are you out there?

OP.....This is the person who could answer your questions.

Hope this helps.

 

The other half of capitalism is making a profit in order to survive in a competitive market.

 

None of those terms were ever designed to confuse buyers. They are simply industry standard terms.

In fact, going off of nothing more than "getting 13.5% off MSRP" is actually MORE confusing and extremely vague. Why? Because that number does not account for rebates or any other manufacturer incentives, dealer discounts, etc. Some months the rebates/incentives are far better than others. For example....

2 people get the same truck at different times of the year, both get 13.5% off MSRP. One person had rebates of $2,500 when they purchased their truck, the other had rebates of $5,000. Who negotiated the better deal?

If you had half the rebates and still got the same price, it means you negotiated a better deal with the sales department, and the dealer took more off the price of the truck and made less profit than the one who got bigger rebates.

That's why these industry standard terms exist. Nothing about them is confusing.

13.5% off doesn't mean much without knowing rebates and holdback.

 

I don't think that negotiating the best deal possible is " screwing the dealer" it's just good business... If they don't make much or any profit on a particular deal that they choose to make, will be made up with the majority of uninformed and naive folks that don't know any better than to pay MSRP or settle for a small discount....
Oh and buy the way how many of you capitalist out there are willing to show an actual invoice reveling the true cost of your goods or services to a potential buyer ... So when the dealer plops down what they claim is invoice I'm skeptical.

 

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with negotiating the best deal possible. If someone gets a great deal, then it's awesome.

What always ends up being posted in dealer threads like this one is how much of the general public actually doesn't understand the industry, and how outlandish and unrealistic some customer expectations of a dealership are, and what buyers expect in a car deal. Too many myths wrapped up in conspiracies and deep fried in general disgust. And I understand completely, I've worked in dealerships and there's plenty of blame to go around. There does exist those dishonest sales consultants, managers, general managers, and greedy owners. Most of that can be easily avoided with only a slight bit of research by a potential customer, and a teeny bit of advice and education from those who have been in the industry and can help consumers navigate the sales process.

And dealers can't easily make up an invoice sheet. If they show it to you, it's most likely legit. If they just throw out a number and claim it's invoice without providing an invoice sheet, then yes it's perfectly fine to be suspicious. Invoice sheets have way to much detail to create a fraudulent one in an instant.

 

I never said anyone should not try to negotiate the best deal possible. In fact, I said just the opposite.

I can sum up my opinion in just a few short words: Negotiate a deal that is acceptable to both you and the seller and understand that they do need to make a little profit in order to stay in business. But don't have unrealistic expectations and don't be an a**h*le, expecting them to lick your ***** and give you the world.

 

please explain your definition of "beat down a dealer"...When I enter into negotiation for a new truck lm lookin for the best deal possible... I haven't purchased as many as some folks but not new to the process... you say your not against that approach but then say dont beat down the dealer..... So if the best deal is to be achieved, mabey some hard negotiation is in order. I take this approach every time and have a great relationship with my dealer... I don't think you have to leave money on the table or basically "buy" a good relationship to get it

 

When someone says they got 13.5% off MSRP they got 13.5% off of MSRP.....that includes rebates, discounts, the watch the salesman gave you, etc. There is NOTHING confusing about that at all.

 

So in the example I gave, who did the better job negotiating?

What if the person who got the better dealer discount ALSO got the higher rebates?

You need to understand that there is a big difference as to how you get to that X% off MSRP.

Rebates and incentives come from the manufacturer, not the dealer.

Dealer discounts come from the dealer, not the manufacturer.

If you want X% off the price of a vehicle, and the manufacturer rebates are high, the dealer is earning higher profits because they are giving less dealer discounts to make that price happen.

If you want the same X% off the price of the vehicle, and the manufacturer rebates are low, the dealer is earning less profits because they are giving more dealer discounts to make that price happen.

This is important information to know when going into a vehicle negotiation. Just flat out telling a dealer you want X% off and expecting it to happen without knowing where that money is coming from is an extremely poor negotiation tactic.

What if there aren't enough rebates to reach X% off MSRP? The consumer needs to be aware of what is a realistic number to negotiate.

What if there's a ton of rebates to reach X% off MSRP? The consumer negotiating the deal could be leaving money on the table and may have missed getting a better deal.

And that's why I'm saying you need to understand the difference.

 

If the manufacturer rebates never inter the negotiation or math till the price is agreed upon then it's not hard to tell what is what. I never let manufacturers rebates inter the picture till the deal is done then add them for total % below MSRP.... if you know the invoice & hold back and manufacture rebate amounts its pretty easy to figure where the discounts are coming from so no money is left on the table..

 

Correct.

Not knowing those things and just looking for a percentage off the MSRP is a terrible way to negotiate.

Always negotiate dealer discount, it is the only number that actually moves in terms of the purchase price of the vehicle (I'm not counting financing costs or any other costs here, that's a different subject). The manufacture rebates and incentives are what they are at the time of the vehicle purchase. The only thing the customer can do with regards to rebates and incentives is to make sure they are getting ALL of the ones they qualify for. Often times there's more than one incentive available.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't care where the discount comes from as long as I get the best deal. I work with several dealerships and play one off against the other. Lowest price wins.....including rebates. How's that a terrible way to negotiate? Going to one dealer is a terrible way to negotiate.

 

And that's precisely how the dealerships win in a negotiation, even if you're trying to pit several dealers against each other.

How do you actually know you're getting the best deal if you don't know where the numbers are coming from or how discounts are being applied?

My truck retailed for almost $62,000
Invoice was a little over $56,000
Rebates at the time only added up to $2,500
I paid $51,500 (not including tax/title)

Anyone who's remotely familiar with the car industry knows that cut waaaaaayyyy deep into the dealer holdback. I know I got a great deal at the time. Sure if I waited for better rebates I could have paid less, but at the time I needed the truck, and necessity trumped waiting for better rebates.

I only worked with one dealership and one sales consultant the entire time. No games, no hassles. Didn't use a D-plan or X-plan or any plan. And this truck was custom ordered by me, not a lot truck.

The more you know about the dealer sales process and dealer pricing on new vehicles, the easier it is to get a good deal, and the less hassle it becomes. It also helps to have a relationship with the dealer you are buying from and the sales consultant you are working with.

Playing games with dealers, using shoddy negotiation tactics, getting angry and frustrated, not doing homework/research, etc.... all make the car buying experience miserable and often times more expensive.


And we haven't even gotten into financing yet........

 

I’ve bought a lot of new Fords in my life. Always got a fair deal I thought. This thread and some of yalls take or knowledge of auto sales makes me curious about my last Superduty purchase. As I said in a previous post the dealer I used took 10k off sticker as soon as we sat down to talk numbers. This was before rebates.

Where does that 10k come from? Ford discount or incentives to dealer maybe?