Injectors for towing?
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 3
From: Asheville-where weird is
Seems you are on the right track with boots, plenums and up-pipes. The one noisy injector could be as simple as torque on the hold down bolt. New o-rings are a great idea if you aren't read to purchase injectors yet.
Pocket's post knocked it out of the ballpark.
SRBF150's and my experience are almost identical with the 175/80% from P.I.S. Both he and Tugly(160/100's) are correct in that with that amount of fuel coupled with those nozzles there is more power than you'll ever use towing.
I still haven't experienced the full potential of the all-out tune in the 7k miles since I installed them while empty. I can say that I could never go back to anything smaller. The amount of power in the daily driver is stunning when compared to stock or even 160/30's. If you can afford it, purchase NEW. It is worth every extra penny.
The bottom line on nozzles: If you were to choose larger volume injectors with stock sized nozzles=more fuel per time, your EGT's will be higher. PERIOD, if no other changes are made. When towing, the only way to reduce EGT's with stock nozzles is to reduce the amount of weight you are pulling, which is usually not an option, or let off the throttle and find another gear. At higher altitudes this process is even more difficult/complicated and less effective.
Based upon my real world experience, 30% nozzles are a waste of money. I learned the hard way. The 30% nozzles lowered the EGT's when compared to stock nozzles by about 50-100 degrees.
80% nozzles have reduced the EGT's on the truck in my signature by 150-200 degrees when compared to the 30%'ers which is awesome. I am no longer forced to drive according to EGT's. It is an apples to apples comparison due to the fact that I pull the same exact loads on the same roads and terrain every day. Instead of being forced to find a lower HP tune and a lower gear, I simply downshift and go. With 80%'ers this translates into having the ability to pull a 7-8% grade in 3rd gear at about 2400-2500 rpm's as opposed to the same grade and load in second gear at about 2600-2700 rpm's with the 30%'ers. All of this is with 14-16k worth of trailer and shipping container(s), which are aerodynamic nightmares, behind the truck with a beginning altitude of 2200' and ending at about 5300' ASL which is tiny in comparison to some places. EGT's seldom go above 1000, very rarely 1100 and I cannot get close to hitting 1200 while being reasonable.
Hope this helps.
In case you aren't aware, RiffRaff has a kit that will upgrade your stock turbo to a close to 38R equivalent for about half the price.
Pocket's post knocked it out of the ballpark.
SRBF150's and my experience are almost identical with the 175/80% from P.I.S. Both he and Tugly(160/100's) are correct in that with that amount of fuel coupled with those nozzles there is more power than you'll ever use towing.
I still haven't experienced the full potential of the all-out tune in the 7k miles since I installed them while empty. I can say that I could never go back to anything smaller. The amount of power in the daily driver is stunning when compared to stock or even 160/30's. If you can afford it, purchase NEW. It is worth every extra penny.
The bottom line on nozzles: If you were to choose larger volume injectors with stock sized nozzles=more fuel per time, your EGT's will be higher. PERIOD, if no other changes are made. When towing, the only way to reduce EGT's with stock nozzles is to reduce the amount of weight you are pulling, which is usually not an option, or let off the throttle and find another gear. At higher altitudes this process is even more difficult/complicated and less effective.
Based upon my real world experience, 30% nozzles are a waste of money. I learned the hard way. The 30% nozzles lowered the EGT's when compared to stock nozzles by about 50-100 degrees.
80% nozzles have reduced the EGT's on the truck in my signature by 150-200 degrees when compared to the 30%'ers which is awesome. I am no longer forced to drive according to EGT's. It is an apples to apples comparison due to the fact that I pull the same exact loads on the same roads and terrain every day. Instead of being forced to find a lower HP tune and a lower gear, I simply downshift and go. With 80%'ers this translates into having the ability to pull a 7-8% grade in 3rd gear at about 2400-2500 rpm's as opposed to the same grade and load in second gear at about 2600-2700 rpm's with the 30%'ers. All of this is with 14-16k worth of trailer and shipping container(s), which are aerodynamic nightmares, behind the truck with a beginning altitude of 2200' and ending at about 5300' ASL which is tiny in comparison to some places. EGT's seldom go above 1000, very rarely 1100 and I cannot get close to hitting 1200 while being reasonable.
Hope this helps.
In case you aren't aware, RiffRaff has a kit that will upgrade your stock turbo to a close to 38R equivalent for about half the price.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
More great info, thank you.
What Riff Raff kit are you talking about? I haven't seen that one.
I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
What Riff Raff kit are you talking about? I haven't seen that one.
I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
Laughing Gas
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 868
Likes: 1
From: SoCal
PIS reman 175/80s are 1795. I opted for 200/80 remans for $200 more to eliminate the need for an aftermarket HPOP. I had 2 injectors that didn't idle quite right and Tim didn't hesitate to send replacements. About 23000 miles on them so far and they're doing great. In my case, the time spent trouble shooting and swapping 2 sticks was worth the savings over new.
As far as rebuilding yours, you won't see any performance gain while towing. Cooler EGTs come from the bigger nozzle and plenty of air.
As far as rebuilding yours, you won't see any performance gain while towing. Cooler EGTs come from the bigger nozzle and plenty of air.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Lancaster PA
More great info, thank you.
What Riff Raff kit are you talking about? I haven't seen that one.
I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
What Riff Raff kit are you talking about? I haven't seen that one.
I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
The riffraff kit is here RDP 66mm GTP38 Conversion Kit - Riffraff Diesel Performance This is what I used, Keep in mind you will have a smaller turbo outlet than the 38R, which will raise egts a bit. But your turbo will spool quicker. I like mine a lot for what I use it for, The truck is pulling a 8000lb landscape trailer around 90% of the time its on the road, a LOT of stop and go.
I also went with rosewood injectors and have no complaints after 20K miles. I went with his 200/30 but if I had to do it over it would be 200/80. EGT's are never an issue unless we are towing 14K or more. Even then its rare unless you really lug it up a hill.
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 3
From: Asheville-where weird is
Reply is in BLUE
I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
If you can afford NEW, then do it. Are you talking about re-"o-ring"-ing the injectors?
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
I don't want to contradict Jim and hopefully I am not; however, 160/100's are not going to be the equivalent of 175/80's UNLESS he is increasing the capacity of the 160's well beyond 160cc and still selling them as 160's. There is nothing wrong with that practice and it does ensure that injectors will never flow test below their advertised capacity. From what I understand, most builders do this. For instance, one set of "modified" AC code = 160cc injectors that a friend purchased were flow tested on an independent bench and flowed 168cc's but were sold as 160's. This test was verified on an additional bench. Most 175cc's flow closer to 180cc's...etc for the same reason. No builder wants to have the headache of someone complaining that their product isn't performing as advertised and then be verified that it is due to capacity. So, I think they add a P to the equation which stands for PLENTY.
Again, 80% nozzles are going to be cleaner and easier to tune than 100% nozzles. Your choice.
As for guys like us making mistakes, it can and does happen; however, if you follow the instructions on the RiffRaff site and the advice from guys on here, you'll nail it the first time.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
I am retired. However, my truck pays the additional bills that arrive in the mail due to an unforeseen illness that reared its' head. Due to that, I need everything on my truck to be as reliable as possible so I chose NEW from P.I.S. because I don't need unplanned vacations due to a broken truck and I need to be relatively certain I well be home the vast majority of nights instead of on the side of the road. I am certain that new injectors from Rosewood would be just as reliable. This is a long winded way of saying the decision between new and remanned is yours' alone at the end of the day.
Per the P.I.S. site, your stock injectors should flow relatively close to 150cc's. There is a big difference between 150cc's and 160cc's or whatever they actually are once modified. There is a HUGE difference between 150cc's and 175cc's. Rosewood can add 80% nozzles to your stock split shots and the addition of those nozzles alone will lower the EGT's on your stockers some. David or Tim at P.I.S. could do the same thing. Now, some will say that there is a point of diminishing returns when adding larger than stock nozzles to split shots and therefore refuse while others will work within those limitations. See below.
http://www.rosewooddieselshop.com/adcode.htm <----AD Codes with 80% nozzles
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I'm now torn between just re-ringing the injectors I have or doing a 38R and injectors, though leaning towards doing it all now.
If you can afford NEW, then do it. Are you talking about re-"o-ring"-ing the injectors?
Getting back to injectors for a moment, I spoke to Rosewood Diesel and they can get a set of new ACs and put 100% nozzles in for about $2300 total, which is comparable to a set of 175/80 PIS injectors. Or I can send mine to Rosewood and have them rebuild them for $1235. He claimed they have a 99% success rate and that a lot of the failures are installation errors because guys like me who have never done this before are usually doing the installing.
I don't want to contradict Jim and hopefully I am not; however, 160/100's are not going to be the equivalent of 175/80's UNLESS he is increasing the capacity of the 160's well beyond 160cc and still selling them as 160's. There is nothing wrong with that practice and it does ensure that injectors will never flow test below their advertised capacity. From what I understand, most builders do this. For instance, one set of "modified" AC code = 160cc injectors that a friend purchased were flow tested on an independent bench and flowed 168cc's but were sold as 160's. This test was verified on an additional bench. Most 175cc's flow closer to 180cc's...etc for the same reason. No builder wants to have the headache of someone complaining that their product isn't performing as advertised and then be verified that it is due to capacity. So, I think they add a P to the equation which stands for PLENTY.
Again, 80% nozzles are going to be cleaner and easier to tune than 100% nozzles. Your choice.
As for guys like us making mistakes, it can and does happen; however, if you follow the instructions on the RiffRaff site and the advice from guys on here, you'll nail it the first time.
So if the success rate really is that high, I should feel relatively safe in picking this path? Put another way, is it worth spending another $1000 to get brand new and the larger body? The stocks are 130cc, right? Keeping in mind that 2400-2500 is about where it sits pulling a grade... do I need that extra 30cc?
I am retired. However, my truck pays the additional bills that arrive in the mail due to an unforeseen illness that reared its' head. Due to that, I need everything on my truck to be as reliable as possible so I chose NEW from P.I.S. because I don't need unplanned vacations due to a broken truck and I need to be relatively certain I well be home the vast majority of nights instead of on the side of the road. I am certain that new injectors from Rosewood would be just as reliable. This is a long winded way of saying the decision between new and remanned is yours' alone at the end of the day.
Per the P.I.S. site, your stock injectors should flow relatively close to 150cc's. There is a big difference between 150cc's and 160cc's or whatever they actually are once modified. There is a HUGE difference between 150cc's and 175cc's. Rosewood can add 80% nozzles to your stock split shots and the addition of those nozzles alone will lower the EGT's on your stockers some. David or Tim at P.I.S. could do the same thing. Now, some will say that there is a point of diminishing returns when adding larger than stock nozzles to split shots and therefore refuse while others will work within those limitations. See below.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
Sorry, I wasn't being clear when I said they were comparable. I meant in price, not in performance.
80% nozzles are easier to tune? I didn't know that. The AC/100 setup was Stewart's suggestion. I think that if I decide to get new injectors, the PIS 175/80 would be ones I go with now. I also hate the idea of being stuck or down somewhere for a week or more because of a bad injector. Actually what I really hate is the idea of pulling it apart again... lol
80% nozzles are easier to tune? I didn't know that. The AC/100 setup was Stewart's suggestion. I think that if I decide to get new injectors, the PIS 175/80 would be ones I go with now. I also hate the idea of being stuck or down somewhere for a week or more because of a bad injector. Actually what I really hate is the idea of pulling it apart again... lol
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
Here's where I am with cost on this project so far. I haven't made major any purchases yet.
I'm doing:
FRx Fuel crossover line
SPT Turbo rebuild kit
Billet intake plenums
CAC boot kit (6)
T-bolt clamp kit
Blank pedestal
Up pipes
HPOP lines and non-check ball fittings
Injector o-rings (if not, new PIS 175/80s)
The front axle needs bearings, seals, and one stub shaft.
I also need a bumper, air & fuel filters, idler pulleys (more of a PM thing), '08 tow mirrors, and an aftermarket '05-style grill that's supposed to fit 99-04 trucks - the only purely indulgent thing on the list.
The total so far is about $2500.
Optional goodies:
38R turbo: $1200
175/80's: $2400
Oh yeah... and another $6600 to have a JW trans put in it.
Min: $9100. With turbo and injector upgrades: $12,700.
Note that I paid very close to that for the truck to begin with.
I'm doing:
FRx Fuel crossover line
SPT Turbo rebuild kit
Billet intake plenums
CAC boot kit (6)
T-bolt clamp kit
Blank pedestal
Up pipes
HPOP lines and non-check ball fittings
Injector o-rings (if not, new PIS 175/80s)
The front axle needs bearings, seals, and one stub shaft.
I also need a bumper, air & fuel filters, idler pulleys (more of a PM thing), '08 tow mirrors, and an aftermarket '05-style grill that's supposed to fit 99-04 trucks - the only purely indulgent thing on the list.
The total so far is about $2500.
Optional goodies:
38R turbo: $1200
175/80's: $2400
Oh yeah... and another $6600 to have a JW trans put in it.
Min: $9100. With turbo and injector upgrades: $12,700.
Note that I paid very close to that for the truck to begin with.
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 29,380
Likes: 118
From: Central Coast of CA
Andy, I suggest you ask the tuners you are considering if there is a difference for them when it comes for tuning AC's with 80% versus AC's with 100% nozzles.
For some, it may be nothing.
Stewart
For some, it may be nothing.
Stewart
Last edited by Stewart_H; Feb 2, 2017 at 02:05 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 9,293
Likes: 10
From: Parker, CO
From my limited experience, I have learned that not all are created equal.
100% nozzles for the most part start off as 80%, and then are extrude honed out to 100%.
Now there are several theories out there that I will touch on. It seems that the EDM process provides a more accurate hole, so you get a more reliable and consistent full set of injectors with nozzles that are EDM out to 80% or 200% or whatever size you are going for that are standard EDM nozzles.
With regards to extrude honed nozzles, some people feel that the nozzle holes can be cleaned up and be smoother with a high quality process compared to EDM, which might leave a slight "rough" edge. Indeed, good quality EH nozzles will be very consistent in size, and for well done 100% nozzles those seem to be about as easy to tune as 80%. However, some have the theory that nozzle holes that are overly smooth do not atomize the fuel as well, and that the fuel comes out in larger droplets compared to EDM only. But at the same time, there are proponents that argue that a good smooth nozzle hole is essential to having the best atomization.
So there are competing schools of thought regarding nozzles, I'll let you guys decide which is which. What I know from experience is that I've had a few 100% nozzle injectors that I absolutely could not get to idle correctly. Nothing I could do would work, and by the time I got to these trucks the owners had already gone through 2 or 3 other professional tuners... all with the same results. That's bad when it's easier to tune a 200% nozzle than it is a 100%.
That said, I've never had an 80% nozzle that I couldn't get dialed in.
But again, not all are created equal. I have tuned and ridden in some very nice running 100%'ers. In the end it's your call Andy.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
I was doing some reading and searching today, trying to learn more about injectors. I found this on DP Tuner's website:
Is this accurate?
When you go beyond Stage 1 (160cc) injectors, fuel system upgrades are critical. The stock fuel system is not designed to meet the demands for fuel. Fuel pressure can drop and this drop can lead to cracked nozzles if the pressure drops are extreme. You must be able to maintain adequate fuel pressure to avoid this potential problem. One solution is the addition of the AirDog Unit or some other aftermarket pump. We can discuss this further with you if you are interested.
Butt-Head
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 9,448
Likes: 2,934
From: Reed Point, MT
I was doing some reading and searching today, trying to learn more about injectors. I found this on DP Tuner's website:
Is this accurate?
Is this accurate?
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 29,380
Likes: 118
From: Central Coast of CA
I was doing some reading and searching today, trying to learn more about injectors. I found this on DP Tuner's website:
Is this accurate?
Is this accurate?
Fueling is critical, period. We can all agree on that. And one could say once you get above a stock injector, it's even more important, which isn't inaccurate either. But when do you start nearing the line for needing to upgrade the stock fuel system? Lemme put your fears at ease, with the plans you've shared with us, you're not gonna be anywhere NEAR that line, needing to upgrade your fuel system.
The stock fuel system is more than adequate for some fairly big injectors.
Again, I have A code 225/100's and I have a stock fuel system. You're looking at AC codes, which are 160/0's (or 80's, or 100's, whichever you choose). Never in a million years would you have to upgrade ANYTHING fuel related because of the AC's, no matter what size nozzles you choose.
Stewart
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
Ok that makes me feel a lot better. This seems like an excellent time to ask some questions about installing a fuel pressure gauge...
Do I need the electrical or mechanical one? I'm guessing the electrical one, which is $260 for the one that matches my other gauges. Should I plumb it post-filter (lower, passenger-side port)? I'll be installing the FRX from Riff Raff as well. Does that share a fitting with the gauge sender? I'm not quite sure how all this goes together.
My hutch mod kit (I forget the vendor I used now) came with the baldwin screw-on filter with the water drain valve. It's mounted just forward of the tank. I also have the fuel bowl out, rebuilt, and waiting to go back in. If any of that makes any difference.
I talked to Clay today. He talked me out of the billet plenums unless mine were leaking, so I'm saving a bunch of money and going with the inserts. I do plan on rigging up some kind of boost test to check for leaks. Whichever pipes I decide to go with, how much work is it to do myself if I already have the turbo and pedestal off?
He also said that he hadn't heard anything bad about PIS injectors - and I've read nothing but good - but he does have a better price on Full Force Diesel injectors. He can get a set of new 180/80 injectors for about $150 less than PIS. I know FFD's and Clay's reputations are both stellar, but does anybody see any issue with that?
One more thing... single vs split shot. Is there any reason besides idle quality and emissions to choose split shot injectors?
I'm really close to pulling the trigger on this, and just enjoy driving a truck with a bunch of nice upgrades for a while. 38R and everything...
Do I need the electrical or mechanical one? I'm guessing the electrical one, which is $260 for the one that matches my other gauges. Should I plumb it post-filter (lower, passenger-side port)? I'll be installing the FRX from Riff Raff as well. Does that share a fitting with the gauge sender? I'm not quite sure how all this goes together.
My hutch mod kit (I forget the vendor I used now) came with the baldwin screw-on filter with the water drain valve. It's mounted just forward of the tank. I also have the fuel bowl out, rebuilt, and waiting to go back in. If any of that makes any difference.
I talked to Clay today. He talked me out of the billet plenums unless mine were leaking, so I'm saving a bunch of money and going with the inserts. I do plan on rigging up some kind of boost test to check for leaks. Whichever pipes I decide to go with, how much work is it to do myself if I already have the turbo and pedestal off?
He also said that he hadn't heard anything bad about PIS injectors - and I've read nothing but good - but he does have a better price on Full Force Diesel injectors. He can get a set of new 180/80 injectors for about $150 less than PIS. I know FFD's and Clay's reputations are both stellar, but does anybody see any issue with that?
One more thing... single vs split shot. Is there any reason besides idle quality and emissions to choose split shot injectors?
I'm really close to pulling the trigger on this, and just enjoy driving a truck with a bunch of nice upgrades for a while. 38R and everything...
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 3
From: Asheville-where weird is
175/80's on stock fuel system with absolutely no problems. The pump maintains 60-65 PSI at all times.
As others have suggested, you may want to install a a fuel pressure gauge and see what happens once you install your injectors. If your stock pump isn't keeping up then, I would first suspect that there is a clogged screen in the tank or a clogged fuel filter. Next would be a weak fuel pump. New Bosch is about as inexpensive as you can ask for: Bosch OEM Replacement Electric Fuel Pump
You should be good to go on stock oil / HPOP as well.
Just saw your post. I would choose the electric gauge. Yes, use the post filter port as that is what your injectors are seeing. Full Force does good work as well. I think once you get into AC codes and larger, single shots are going to be your only choice.
As others have suggested, you may want to install a a fuel pressure gauge and see what happens once you install your injectors. If your stock pump isn't keeping up then, I would first suspect that there is a clogged screen in the tank or a clogged fuel filter. Next would be a weak fuel pump. New Bosch is about as inexpensive as you can ask for: Bosch OEM Replacement Electric Fuel Pump
You should be good to go on stock oil / HPOP as well.
Just saw your post. I would choose the electric gauge. Yes, use the post filter port as that is what your injectors are seeing. Full Force does good work as well. I think once you get into AC codes and larger, single shots are going to be your only choice.