After reading, researching, and calling and speaking to all the different injector companies and tuners, I decided to go with David at Performance Injection Systems. David impressed me with his knowledge, customer service, and timely turn around of getting the injectors out.

These will go on my 2003 7.3 Excursion, that I have been slowly building over the last 2 years.

I already have a GT38R turbo, Adrenaline HPOP, IH bellowed up pipes, AIH delete plug tapped for my boost gauge, Donaldson 6637 air filter, and Riffraff's CCV kit, also at the same time, all of the intercooler boots were replaced.

The transmission was also rebuilt, with a Hayden transmission cooler. I chose a low stall billet faced single disc RV torque converter (Precision of New Hampton). The transmission has high energy clutches and reinforced valves, however no billet shafts, or red clutches.

I bought the 175/80 injectors along with Gearhead's Hydra Chip.

For supporting mods, I decided to go with Riffraff's FRx, High Flow Banjo Bolts, ISSPRO EV2 fuel sensor 0-100 psi, and the high flow CVD (check valve delete) fittings.

I contemplated also getting the HPx, however, since I already have the Adrenaline HPOP, and speaking with Dieselsite, they said I really should not need it, since the higher flowing HPOP would take care of what the HPx does. I am still don't fully understand if the HPx would be of benefit or not.

The truck is in the shop right now, and I will report back after my mechanic finishes installing everything.

 

You'll be in for a surprise on the power increase. FWIW, PHP custom tunes work better for me.

 

I'm sure it will be a considerable increase, especially since I had the old sticks flow tested, and all 8 of them failed. Either because of flowing to much fuel, or to little fuel.

Have you tried Gearhead, and why do you like PHP better?

 

Yes, for a few reasons. Granted, I am picky but I was not satisfied. I would really like to get live tuning done, but that seems to be a challenge out here.

 

Flow balancing.... On the "picky" scale - I broke it. On the OCD scale, I'm somewhere in the red zone.

I had my injectors flow tested to a very tight set of specs. I could care less how they perform at WOT (I'm only ever there for a few seconds at a time anyway), so I asked Full Force Diesel to throw the WOT performance under the bus. I want a good flow balance at my tuned parameters for highway driving. On stock injectors, that's about 1000-1200 PSI ICP at 2.X ms Fuel Injector Pulse Width. Get the flow even there, and Bob's your uncle. On the 175/80 sticks, you're likely to cruise at 1000-1200 PSI ICP with a 1.5-1.6 ms FIPW.

One other parameter to use in place of cruise flow - idle flow. Your ICP will likely be 500 PSI, with about a 1.5-1.8 ms FIPW. An imbalance here can make for cold start smoke/miss, or just a rough idle when warm.

 

Can you tell us what other injectors you were thinking of ?
I am assuming you have stock valve springs ?

What does gearhead think of doing these sticks with a PMR motor ?

Kyle

 

I have run into a dilemma. David at P.I.S tells me that I can't run PATS enabled on the Gearhead Hydra, I bought from him, when buying the injectors. This is not acceptable to me, and Gearhead is saying if I choose to run the Hydra with PATS, they will not guarantee that it will work.

From the little I understand about the PATS system on my 2003 Excursion, it is not as simple as unplugging it, without causing the truck to go into lockdown mode.

David is currently trying to find a solution to this.

To further complicate the issue, I found out that Power Hungry Performance supplies Gearhead with the Hydra chip, and PHP tells me they have a way to run PATS enabled, and that it should not be an issue with Gearhead. Something does not seem right...

To even further complicate my decision to run 175/80's - PHP told me their really is no way to "de-tune" a higher flowing injector, like Gearhead is saying, and that I run the risk of blowing up my PMR motor, and braking things because of high EGT's.

For those veterans who understand all of this better than I do, since I thought I did, but I clearly will be the first to say I do not, is there a safe way I can run the 175/80's, since that is what I have in hand, or before they get installed, should I dial my injector choice way down to stage 1's max?

Respectfully,

Kevin

 

Curtis ran much bigger injectors than that on a PMR motor, and had no issues, with the motor that is. Of course I believe he did his own tuning. Based off everything I've read on here, and other places, the bigger the nozzle, the more tricky the tuning is needed to keep them running right.

 

You might call and talk to Jody at DP Tuner. I am pretty sure when I was running his chip on my Excursion PATS was operational and it wasn't ever a question. Also, you can detune any injector from max.... I would keep asking around and I think you will get the knowledge you need.

 

Yes and no. I'll explain.

"Detuning" most commonly means limiting pulsewidth. Although PHP doesn't quite see it that way, and I'll explain what he's referring to.

Let's say you have a stock truck and you throw in a chip for more power. The tuning on that chip increases the injector pulsewidth more than the stock calibration does. This provides more fuel, which means more power.

The issue is that on stock injectors, the nozzles only allow a certain amount of fuel to flow at any given time and pressure.

Going with larger nozzles overcomes that restriction, allowing more fuel to flow at the same amount of given time and pressure. The drawback is that at times you tend to lose a bit of atomization, and depending on the injector, a bit of injection pressure.

That last part is what PHP is referring to. You can't "detune" larger injectors/nozzles to run identical atomization and injection pressures at the tip as a stock injector at lower power levels. They do technically run different and have differing efficiency, burn rates, emissions output, etc.

However, you can "detune" them to run the same or similar power levels. By limiting injection pulsewidth (and timing and injection pressure and blah blah), you can control cylinder pressures, which control torque output, which in turn can keep a PMR motor alive.

That's what I did on my old truck. I could dial back to near stock levels of power, and I had higher HP tunes that still had limited torque on the bottom end to keep cylinder pressures in check. The bigger the nozzle, the harder it is. Your injectors aren't anywhere close to that big, and Matt knows how to tune them well.

There are reasons for larger nozzles. One of the more significant benefits is that at the same power levels, larger nozzles are capable of running lower EGT's. The reason why is that with smaller nozzles, EGT's will rise exponentially as pulsewidth is dragged out too far.

Matt will take care of you. I think you'll enjoy your setup.

 

Pocket nailed it....as usual. Excellent explanation and clarification of some esoteric info and the formal semantics.

I still can't rep him. Would one or more of you guys help out?

Matt will adjust the tables to get what you want. I have not found any other "commercial" tuner that will or, most importantly, CAN. I think Bill could.

 

I have dealt with this as well, and in my case the PATS system locked the truck out whenever the chip was removed. It would not run without a chip, unless a PCM was swapped. I do not know how this works.... but I had a heck of a time trouble shooting a truck and went through your exact dilemma. In the end it was PATS disabled....

Pocket nailed it on the injectors.

 

I think somebody needed a cup of coffee before speaking - it happens to me a lot.

I have 160/100s and I have a stock-power tune burned into my PCM for these single-shot injectors. The reason for the PCM burn is for just in case I have an issue with my chip (which happened once, far from home). In my case, the chip was not the failure point, it was an issue with the connection - and it was beyond my control.

Back to the point - my Hydra has stock tune, a tow tune that is pretty much bulletproof with EGTs, a DD that wouldn't hurt PMRs yet pass the pokies with authority, and a race tune that I'm reasonably sure won't hurt PMRs (which I don't have). PMRs are strained with aggressive tuning on bigger sticks - too much fuel too early at low RPMs (excessive cylinder pressures). I won't say you can't hurt PMRs with 80% nozzles, but the tuner has to make an effort to do so - or not know how to avoid the danger zone.

The "triad" of fueling is Injector Control Pressure, Fuel Injector Pulse Width, and Start Of Injection. You will never see SOI on an OBDII gauge, yet it plays a huge role in protecting the PMRs.

 

Thanks Tugly, that makes me feel a lot better about running what I have. I thank everyone else for their knowledge, as I learn all the terms and applications of them.

What it really boils down to is it seems I inadvertently found the proverbial hornets nest between two reputable companies, and I stuck my hand right in. PHP saying their is no way to de-tune, and Gearhead saying anyone who says you can't detune sticks doesn't know what they are doing.

Once my mechanic gets everything installed, I will report back.

I do have TorquePro, after the stick and tuner are in, what PID's should I watch to check the health of everything?

 

What I call "The big 9" plus one.



The EBP max is revised to 55 PSI

Speed and RPMs are obviously covered on the dash, so those are primarily for logging reasons if you have an issue.