sorry meant to put in the book that it happened in, before that was alot of the indescretions you are talking of. and alot of those indescretions went punished

 

Sinjin,
It's all a matter of faith that god is who he says he is and that his word is true. I can't give you a completely logical explanation beyond that.


Now let me ask you:

You seem to accept that the universe had no beginning, can you logically explain to me how that could be?

 

gdub,
As I stated it is beyond my ability to comprehend. I have learned enough in my life to realize that I know very little. My statements and questions are based upon logical assumptions and conclusion. All that I ask is that you attempt to explain your position under the same criteria, or as to the best of your ability. Think of it as an exercise in thought and faith. To learn and not be tested is as to earn and not spend. It is a fruitless knowledge if never used to broaden your mind. Will your faith stand up to the test of an athiest? I will propose valid arguements and assumptions and hopefully you will pose counterpoints worthy of a response.

 

big-d,
I think we are at an impasse. I can no more explain how the universe came into being at the hand of God than you can explain how it came to be without God.

My trying to explain the workings of God is on the same plain as an earthworm trying to explain nuclear physics. Neither one of us is equipped to do it.

Much of Christianity and faith in God cannot be logically explained. It requires the willingness to get out of that comfort zone of pure logic to begin to comprehend.


I can tell you that belief and trust in God has made it infinitely easier to face the challenges of this life.

 

gdub,
I like your response. I believe that the lure of having a strong faith is that you never feel alone. The skeptical side of my personality always wins out when ever I attempt to develop a faith. I have read the Bible. I still have no faith in it. I'm at an impasse with myself. I have always had more comfort with my logic then with blind faith, and it is the challenges of this life that I attribute to a Godless world. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I feel that I am trying to challenge those with a strong faith to see if I can comprehend how they rationalize their faith. I suppose in a way you could say I'm searching for answers in others logic as to the existance of God.

 

gdub,

Not that this would be satisfactory to you but for me:

The first law of thermodynamics- "Conservation of Energy"

If energy cannot be created or destroyed but only change its state it follows that all energy including the matter of the universe was never created(no beginning) and can never be destroyed(no end).

Funnily enough this is part of Hindu cosmology which predates
both science and Christianity.

 

Bigd:
While I can't prove God's existence, I can say that I have lived both a life with God and a life without. I think someone else already said this also. This is how I see it. Everyone has a hole or void that they are trying to fill with something whether it be science, drugs, sex, or whatever. People try to fill a need in their life with things of this world. At least that's how I felt at one point. I always searched for something or someone that could make me feel better and fill the "void" in my life. I always found something that "temporarily" filled my "void." I found myself temporarily satisfyed with the things that this world had to offer, but I'd always feel empty in the end. Then, I would have to go back and get re-filled with the same temporary stuff again and again. Well, one year I was invited to youth camp, and through that youth camp, I asked God into my life. I immediatly felt a change in my life. My void was filled. I've tried my hardest to live for him every day, and that was over 9 years ago. My "void" has been filled since then every single day. It's like this (and this is just my thinking) I didn't have to go back to my vomit like a dog. A dog eats, vomits, and ends up going back to its own puke. That's what I felt like I was doing before I accepted God into my life. I think that applies to a lot of people these days...

This world has so many things to offer you that aren't of God or Godly or whatever. What happens, is we end up using that resource up that we buy into and then we have to go get more. With God, you never have to get more. He's always there when you walk with him. Here's another way of thinking of it:

An old man (driving) and an old woman (riding) are riding in their Ford one day. While stopped at a red light, a younger couple pulls up and are all cuddled up to each other...side by side. The old woman says to the old man, "I wish we still cuddled up like that when we ride in our Ford." The old man said, "Sorry, but I never moved." In the same way, God never moves from me. If I don't feel his spirit in my life, it's because I moved...not him. Like I said, that's just my way of seeing it.

The world had nothing to offer me that was ultimately satisfying.

God has never left me unsatisfied.

 

It is impossible for man to concieve these things. IMHO it isn't impossible for God. God has ultimate power, and I think if he wanted to create something from nothing, he could. my opinion

 

true4.2--

So you are saying that God is your drug of choice?

That is, the reason you believe is to make you feel better? Like a junkie to the needle-it's all about alleviating your personal suffering with a 'fix'. Rather than quitting the habit and becoming a 'whole' person the addict reaches for the opium and reaffirms their personal weakness out of fear of the truth regarding who and what they are.

I'm sure this is not what you meant. I certainly went a little far with the analogy, but just because you feel better when you believe doesn't make God real.

Whistler

 

true,

No disrespect but I find it hard to accept your conclusions about the world when you were of "youth camp" age.

For most of us it takes a little longer to find the meaning of our lives.

 

big-d
I hope you can find the answers you are looking for. The search for God is the beginning of faith, it is a slow process that requires us to admit first to the possibilty of God's existence and then to be willing to listen for God's message. Once faith in God is established his word becomes very logical.

I guess the logic of God's plan can really only be understood after you have faith in him. That's the beauty of it too, God requires us to take a leap of faith and admit belief and trust in him before we can really understand how everthing ties together.

 

sinjin
Your right, that makes about as much sense to me as I guess my belief in God's creation makes to you.

I have trouble believing that matter can exist if it wasn't created at some point. I guess you just have to have faith that thats how it is.

 

Amen brother

 

There's an overhwelming trend here in the last few posts, and throughtout this thread I think, when it comes to the defense of individual's faith in God.

You have to want to believe. Most of the answers here from believers boil down to this - if you believe, it makes sense, otherwise it does not.

It's a clever catch 22, you can't understand God unless you have faith. Yet if you have faith, you have no need of an understanding of God, because you have faith that whatever he says is ultimate truth and his power is limitless.

A lot of the responses to logical questions that have been posted follow the lines of - first have faith, and WANT TO BELIEVE, and then it will be clear to you.

People who approach things from a logical point of view don't see things that way.

To my way of thinking, it's like being a hypochondriac, if you want to be sick badly enough, you'll be sick. If you want to believe in God badly enough, it's easy to justify anything based on unconditional faith.

true4.2, as an aside,

I know I've posted this before, but your post on youth camp, and whistler's reply, only reinforced my opinion, through your own words, that religion is used primarily as a crutch for people who ultimately don't want to take responsibility for their lives and the things in this world that they don't understand.

Waxy

 

Waxy

You do have to want to believe. From what I've read here most of you guys are looking for something to believe in. You just don't want it to be God.

And when you have faith you want to understand more about God, it is a necessary part of a growing walk with Christ to try to understand as much of his message as possible. But accepting him does not mean you automatically understand it all.

Whistler,

The analogy about a drug addict is only true to the point that a Christian can't bear living their life without God, acceptance of Jesus makes a person come face to face with who we really are and realize that we are incapable of saving ourselves. Belief in God allows us to become the person we should be, a truly whole person, someone who strives to live the example Christ showed us.