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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 12:40 PM
  #31  
Macrobb's Avatar
Macrobb
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Originally Posted by pat420swed
And theres no real way of testing the ip without removing it and sending it in eh?
Not really.

Problem is, these units are incredibly robust and don't usually just "fail" in a clear manner.
What happens generally is three things:
1. Over time, the advance piston wears in it's bore, causing timing that will be all over the place. It might simply not advance as much as it revs up -- this will cause an engine that might run fine at lower RPMs, but will smoke and miss at higher revs.

2. Wear between the "head", where fuel is distributed to each injector line and the "rotor" which spins inside of it creates a loss of pressure. The system has no seals in this part; it's just the close tolerance of these pieces that keeps the pressure contained. As things wear, the tolerance gets bigger, and you lose pressure between them.
If you lose too much pressure, the injectors won't open and you will get no fuel.
This is really only a problem when RPMs are lowest -- starting. And hot starting being the worst problem, because everything has expanded due to the heat.
Once the engine is running, the much greater RPMs of even idle will maintain enough pressure, and everything will run fine.
What makes this more complicated is that it's extremely RPM dependant. A 'good' close-tolerance pump with a weak starter and batteries might not start, whereas a 'bad' pump with strong batteries and good starter might.
It also depends on the injector pressures -- brand new stock they are 1800PSI. Worn, they can be down to 1000 PSI. 1K is a lot easier to build up than 1.8K. So you could have an IP that worked with the old injectors, put new ones in, and it now has hot-start issues(or starting issues in general).



3. leaking seals.
There are only a couple of seals on this pump; one between the top cover and the housing, one below the triangle plate on the side, and 3 inline seals on the shaft.
There are three seals inline to prevent fuel from ever getting into the oil(or oil into the pump), and after the first or second seal there's a little drain hole on the bottom of the IP which will let you know if it's leaking.

I have also seen a pump get 'sticky' after a period of non use -- you'd press the accelerator and it would lag for half a second before adding power; let up on the accelerator and it would maintain that speed for a couple of seconds before matching what your foot said.
I'm not sure that's wear as much as something literally getting sticky; I tore that pump completely apart, cleaned it, and put it back together and it /still/ did that.
I adjusted the governor compensation on it to make it drivable, and it got a bit better over time.

Either way, this is why it's so hard to 'test' an IP. Any in-engine tests will probably show it working. And it might... it's usually only corner cases where it fails on you.
It's also possible to 'work around' the limitations in a worn IP -- things like getting the engine cranking faster, or having lower pop-pressures in the injectors.
Even timing piston issues(something that affects ALL pumps eventually) can be somewhat adjusted for, and have a drivable vehicle out of it.
 
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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 04:36 PM
  #32  
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pat420swed
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Originally Posted by Macrobb
Not really.

Problem is, these units are incredibly robust and don't usually just "fail" in a clear manner.
What happens generally is three things:
1. Over time, the advance piston wears in it's bore, causing timing that will be all over the place. It might simply not advance as much as it revs up -- this will cause an engine that might run fine at lower RPMs, but will smoke and miss at higher revs.

2. Wear between the "head", where fuel is distributed to each injector line and the "rotor" which spins inside of it creates a loss of pressure. The system has no seals in this part; it's just the close tolerance of these pieces that keeps the pressure contained. As things wear, the tolerance gets bigger, and you lose pressure between them.
If you lose too much pressure, the injectors won't open and you will get no fuel.
This is really only a problem when RPMs are lowest -- starting. And hot starting being the worst problem, because everything has expanded due to the heat.
Once the engine is running, the much greater RPMs of even idle will maintain enough pressure, and everything will run fine.
What makes this more complicated is that it's extremely RPM dependant. A 'good' close-tolerance pump with a weak starter and batteries might not start, whereas a 'bad' pump with strong batteries and good starter might.
It also depends on the injector pressures -- brand new stock they are 1800PSI. Worn, they can be down to 1000 PSI. 1K is a lot easier to build up than 1.8K. So you could have an IP that worked with the old injectors, put new ones in, and it now has hot-start issues(or starting issues in general).



3. leaking seals.
There are only a couple of seals on this pump; one between the top cover and the housing, one below the triangle plate on the side, and 3 inline seals on the shaft.
There are three seals inline to prevent fuel from ever getting into the oil(or oil into the pump), and after the first or second seal there's a little drain hole on the bottom of the IP which will let you know if it's leaking.

I have also seen a pump get 'sticky' after a period of non use -- you'd press the accelerator and it would lag for half a second before adding power; let up on the accelerator and it would maintain that speed for a couple of seconds before matching what your foot said.
I'm not sure that's wear as much as something literally getting sticky; I tore that pump completely apart, cleaned it, and put it back together and it /still/ did that.
I adjusted the governor compensation on it to make it drivable, and it got a bit better over time.

Either way, this is why it's so hard to 'test' an IP. Any in-engine tests will probably show it working. And it might... it's usually only corner cases where it fails on you.
It's also possible to 'work around' the limitations in a worn IP -- things like getting the engine cranking faster, or having lower pop-pressures in the injectors.
Even timing piston issues(something that affects ALL pumps eventually) can be somewhat adjusted for, and have a drivable vehicle out of it.
Thanks alot for the info macrobb.

My truck always starts in 1 or 2 revolutions while hot. It starts relatively well in the cold from what u guys have told me. It actually started up from about five seconds of cranking today, and it was -5c or so, not terribly cold but not warm either.

I remember last year i was driving to work going up a hill and when i got to the top the truck died. It wouldnt start back up, and i had just been on the forums reading about the heat sink problem. Theres was a ditch beside me with water in it so i poured a bit of it on the head of the pump and tried to start it. It didnt start right away but it did end up starting after cranking with the pedal floored for 10 seconds or so.

I havnt had any problems like this since and the trucks been pretty much trouble free. Other then a water pump and replacing fuel lines.

I wonder what caused that to happen that day?
 
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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 10:11 PM
  #33  
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Macrobb
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Originally Posted by pat420swed
I remember last year i was driving to work going up a hill and when i got to the top the truck died. It wouldnt start back up, and i had just been on the forums reading about the heat sink problem. Theres was a ditch beside me with water in it so i poured a bit of it on the head of the pump and tried to start it. It didnt start right away but it did end up starting after cranking with the pedal floored for 10 seconds or so.
Chances are, you were really low on fuel?

I know that I've had that when low -- going up a hill(or around a tight corner at speed), the fuel goes away from the suction cone, 10-20 seconds later you lose power and the engine dies.
Once you get on the flat, the fuel goes back to the suction cone, so you can restart it... but again, it should only happen when you've got less than 1/8 tank or so.
 
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Old Jan 4, 2016 | 07:21 AM
  #34  
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tjc transport
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my 88 will run out of fuel at 1/4 tank.
i fixed a 89 that would run out at 1/2 tank a few years ago.
 
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Old Jan 4, 2016 | 08:01 AM
  #35  
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pat420swed
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Originally Posted by tjc transport
my 88 will run out of fuel at 1/4 tank.
i fixed a 89 that would run out at 1/2 tank a few years ago.
my gauges didnt work at the time so i filled up every 300k to be safe. Also i had already fixed the failure cone in the tank too. But its oossible being on that hill as its pretty steep that a at a 1/4 tank i guess the fuek could of whent to the back of the tank
 
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Old Jan 5, 2016 | 09:13 PM
  #36  
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speedwrench72
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From: western washington
if you search for intake heaters you will find them many types and applications that could be adapted for use on an IDI one could piggy back a relay to the gp controller and operate it that way some are made to not burn out under constant on power some are operated with controllers depending on its original application. one could make a air exchanger and use vacuum to route intake air to be heated by the exhaust like many fords before with a sensor in the intake for faster warm up when cold out.....
 
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