Need Axle Guru's.. Please Help!
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,798
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From: Mt. Shasta California
Forget about that hardness comparison they are using since they are all case hardened and it has nothing to do with setup, whine, or anything else. The outer surface is extremely hard for wear (you can't touch them with a file), and the core is softer so they don't break teeth. OEM is going to be the same thing.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 201
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From: Clarksville, TN
The other thing to keep in mind with your bent driveshaft is with the new gears your RPM at any given speed has changed and to be more specific it has increased. Meaning the shaft is spinning faster now at 50 mph than it was with the old gears which will change the vibration frequency and noise..
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,798
Likes: 14
From: Mt. Shasta California
They are twice the cost because they are OEM. I don't know where you got the lapped and softer steel thing from. There are lots of myths around that surface from things that are unknown. OP; are you sure that is a ring and pinion whine or just a vibration. A whine is very distinct. You all can talk about good and bad brands all day but none of them should whine.
Tuned
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
From: Altoona, PA
Thanks again everybody!
Update:
Went by the shop today. Asked the owner to take a ride with me. He did...
I took it up to the speed at which the noise begins and lightly played the throttle on and off so he could hear what I was talking about. I could hear it just fine... Here is where it gets jacked up....
Some of you know I have a thread regarding driveshaft vibration after a pinion seal replacement. It is still there. I discovered what that problem was. As some had suggested, it WAS a non-straight shaft. The Ford dealer ( a different one this time) put it up on a lift and ran it. MAN the driveshaft looked like jump rope from the side! So, anyway, I have a custom driveshaft being made as we type... it will be here next week.
Now, back to the ride... the owner knows about my driveshaft wobble... and you can feel and hear it at the same speeds the new gears make noise. He said that as long as that drive shaft is making noise and vibrating, he can't really tell anything is going on with the gears. SIGH....
One thing he told me (ExV10 here we go!) was that IF the gears were not set up properly then there would be whine or howl at all speeds, not just a limited range of speed. Said that it just doesn't add up to him.
I was persistent about the fact that the howl didn't start until the new gears regardless of the driveshaft vibration. Then he said that after I get the new shaft installed next week and that part is quiet again to come and get him and we would go for a ride at that time. He told me that if there is any howling from the rear when he rides again that he would personally tear it down again and fix or replace whatever is wrong with it. He mentioned that in all of his years of doing this that he has actually had bad gear sets come from his vendors, just not many. Either way he would get to the bottom of it.
SO.... now we wait until after new driveshaft goes in and see what happens.
As a side note: he is NOT a mean guy or a bad person.... he is just one of those types that have different expectations of things than some of us do. Like believing that SOME gear noise is acceptable with performance gears.
I'll keep you all updated as I go along.
Thank you all once again.
James
Update:
Went by the shop today. Asked the owner to take a ride with me. He did...
I took it up to the speed at which the noise begins and lightly played the throttle on and off so he could hear what I was talking about. I could hear it just fine... Here is where it gets jacked up....
Some of you know I have a thread regarding driveshaft vibration after a pinion seal replacement. It is still there. I discovered what that problem was. As some had suggested, it WAS a non-straight shaft. The Ford dealer ( a different one this time) put it up on a lift and ran it. MAN the driveshaft looked like jump rope from the side! So, anyway, I have a custom driveshaft being made as we type... it will be here next week.
Now, back to the ride... the owner knows about my driveshaft wobble... and you can feel and hear it at the same speeds the new gears make noise. He said that as long as that drive shaft is making noise and vibrating, he can't really tell anything is going on with the gears. SIGH....
One thing he told me (ExV10 here we go!) was that IF the gears were not set up properly then there would be whine or howl at all speeds, not just a limited range of speed. Said that it just doesn't add up to him.
I was persistent about the fact that the howl didn't start until the new gears regardless of the driveshaft vibration. Then he said that after I get the new shaft installed next week and that part is quiet again to come and get him and we would go for a ride at that time. He told me that if there is any howling from the rear when he rides again that he would personally tear it down again and fix or replace whatever is wrong with it. He mentioned that in all of his years of doing this that he has actually had bad gear sets come from his vendors, just not many. Either way he would get to the bottom of it.
SO.... now we wait until after new driveshaft goes in and see what happens.
As a side note: he is NOT a mean guy or a bad person.... he is just one of those types that have different expectations of things than some of us do. Like believing that SOME gear noise is acceptable with performance gears.
I'll keep you all updated as I go along.
Thank you all once again.
James
I had no knowledge of your bad drive shaft and yes that shaft won't make a gear whine but what that shaft is doing is distorting things. It can possibly be making things amplified overall so you have a noise....that is fact but until you get the new shaft there is no way to exact the noise.
Amazing how people want to go straight to and over the top in handling things. Cooler and more educated heads always prevail.
Let us know how you make out.
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 540
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From: North Florida
They are twice the cost because they are OEM. I don't know where you got the lapped and softer steel thing from. There are lots of myths around that surface from things that are unknown. OP; are you sure that is a ring and pinion whine or just a vibration. A whine is very distinct. You all can talk about good and bad brands all day but none of them should whine.
I absolutely know what ring and pinion whine sounds like as well as most bearing type noises. I am pretty sure this is not the driveshaft jump roping underneath my truck and turning the choppy, vibrating hum sound into a whine. When I get my new shaft put in, I will shortly be getting the diff fixed because he will hear the whine for sure. Even if he can live with it and thinks it's normal, I cannot.
I'll keep you posted. Thank you again!
James
Super Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 25,479
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From: Isanti, MN
I'm very interested in how this plays out James. My 2013 F150 is in the shop right now getting the differential rebuilt after it developed a whine between 49-55 MPH. Those are the only times it whines, and it only whines when under throttle. The tech took a ride with me last week; within a few seconds of the noise appearing he pegged it for differential noise stating that there wasn't anything else that could sound like that.
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
FTE Chapter Leader
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 11,273
Likes: 99
From: North Dakota
I'm very interested in how this plays out James. My 2013 F150 is in the shop right now getting the differential rebuilt after it developed a whine between 49-55 MPH. Those are the only times it whines, and it only whines when under throttle. The tech took a ride with me last week; within a few seconds of the noise appearing he pegged it for differential noise stating that there wasn't anything else that could sound like that.
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
Ntowing heavy before the break in is done will cause noise too.
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
From: North Florida
I'm very interested in how this plays out James. My 2013 F150 is in the shop right now getting the differential rebuilt after it developed a whine between 49-55 MPH. Those are the only times it whines, and it only whines when under throttle. The tech took a ride with me last week; within a few seconds of the noise appearing he pegged it for differential noise stating that there wasn't anything else that could sound like that.
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
If they take the differential cover off PLEASE post pics of the gears. This kind of things has suddenly caught my interest!
James
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Elder User
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From: North Florida
James
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Elder User
Joined: May 2003
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From: North Florida
THIS is the kind of thing I keep reading on a lot of manufacturer's websites... http://www.moserengineering.com/mose...ing.pinion.pdf
Read the last paragraph.... I have found this type of verbiage on a lot of manufacturer's websites ( I have heard it from installers as well obviously). So which is it????
I agree that all should be quiet, but why do I find this stuff everywhere? These manufacturers imply directly that there MUST be some kind of noise that the customer will notice.
I'm just confused now....
James
Read the last paragraph.... I have found this type of verbiage on a lot of manufacturer's websites ( I have heard it from installers as well obviously). So which is it????
I agree that all should be quiet, but why do I find this stuff everywhere? These manufacturers imply directly that there MUST be some kind of noise that the customer will notice.
I'm just confused now....
James
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,798
Likes: 14
From: Mt. Shasta California
THIS is the kind of thing I keep reading on a lot of manufacturer's websites... http://www.moserengineering.com/mose...ing.pinion.pdf
Read the last paragraph.... I have found this type of verbiage on a lot of manufacturer's websites ( I have heard it from installers as well obviously). So which is it????
I agree that all should be quiet, but why do I find this stuff everywhere? These manufacturers imply directly that there MUST be some kind of noise that the customer will notice.
I'm just confused now....
James
Read the last paragraph.... I have found this type of verbiage on a lot of manufacturer's websites ( I have heard it from installers as well obviously). So which is it????
I agree that all should be quiet, but why do I find this stuff everywhere? These manufacturers imply directly that there MUST be some kind of noise that the customer will notice.
I'm just confused now....
James
They have been making these hypoid gear sets for a hundred years and it's not easy but it's not rocket science. Moser's gears are probably 99% good but they just don't want any comebacks. It's like the drug companies that say; if you have this, or this, or this, etc, don't buy our drugs. They don't want any problems especially when there is another party involved; the guy that sets it up.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,798
Likes: 14
From: Mt. Shasta California
The noise could be from properly set up "cheap" gears or poorly set up gears of any quality. Have them show you the contact pattern and backlash as wrxin suggests. It doesn't take long and you're going to have to buy some gear oil for change after initial break-in anyhow. If they have it set up properly it may just be a result of the low cost gears.
I learned to set up final drives in school and I've set up my own gears (Jeep's) at home. It's too much work and too important to mess with low cost gears. You can go cheap on brake pads and even engine oil for a gas engine, but don't cheap out on final drive gears.
Good luck with your efforts to get it squared away.
ETA: Looks like G2 has two levels of gear: "OEM" and "Performance" while they list "quiet" as an attribute of both it's pretty clear from the way they talk about them that the "OEM" gears would be what you want for a daily driver. OEM Ring and Pinions - Ring and Pinion from Original Equipment Manufacturers But again, set up any gear wrong regardless of it's quality and it will be noisy... and take itself apart in short order if it's really poorly installed.
I learned to set up final drives in school and I've set up my own gears (Jeep's) at home. It's too much work and too important to mess with low cost gears. You can go cheap on brake pads and even engine oil for a gas engine, but don't cheap out on final drive gears.
Good luck with your efforts to get it squared away.
ETA: Looks like G2 has two levels of gear: "OEM" and "Performance" while they list "quiet" as an attribute of both it's pretty clear from the way they talk about them that the "OEM" gears would be what you want for a daily driver. OEM Ring and Pinions - Ring and Pinion from Original Equipment Manufacturers But again, set up any gear wrong regardless of it's quality and it will be noisy... and take itself apart in short order if it's really poorly installed.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,798
Likes: 14
From: Mt. Shasta California
Good for you. As I suspected and suggested this would be handled in a professional manner given the shop's reputation is to what you speak of.
I had no knowledge of your bad drive shaft and yes that shaft won't make a gear whine but what that shaft is doing is distorting things. It can possibly be making things amplified overall so you have a noise....that is fact but until you get the new shaft there is no way to exact the noise.
Amazing how people want to go straight to and over the top in handling things. Cooler and more educated heads always prevail.
Let us know how you make out.
I had no knowledge of your bad drive shaft and yes that shaft won't make a gear whine but what that shaft is doing is distorting things. It can possibly be making things amplified overall so you have a noise....that is fact but until you get the new shaft there is no way to exact the noise.
Amazing how people want to go straight to and over the top in handling things. Cooler and more educated heads always prevail.
Let us know how you make out.
. "those are hardened gears for thrashing offroad and for heavy towing, plus the teeth are cut different, they are gonna have more noise than the OEM's that came out of it. There isn't anything we can do".
Now that they changed your mind you are back on the bandwagon.
FTE Chapter Leader
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 11,273
Likes: 99
From: North Dakota
Speaking of "break in"... I have about 300 miles on these gears now and have been through no less than 15 to 20 heat "cycles" with them now. I think they are work-hardened at this point, but I need to tow in 2 days! I will be following a strict pattern of "tow for 15 miles - let gears cool" for about 3 cycles when first headed out.... but do I have enough initial miles on them yet? Just askin.....
James
James
As for that may be louder than OEM gears, I've seen that in alot of adds for gears too.