Grinding in reverse - ZF5
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,647
Likes: 1
From: Exton, PA
more good stuff, man. if i do need to rebuild mine, i'll definitely be referencing this post, searching for your procedure write-up, and probably PM-ing you alot.
hopefully i don't need to, but i guess we'll see.
a few questions for you now though, if you don't mind:
1. do you know of anywhere to buy small replacement part for these things - particuarly the rubber clutch fork seal and the shift tower boot (the inner one on the trans, not the big one in the cab)? Ford doesnt seem to carry them and i haven't found them at any aftermarket places. i'll be picking up some other parts at salvage yards, but don't really like to salvage 20 year old rubber
2. what would you use to flush this transmission? like i said, i hope not to rebuild mine, but i do plan to flush it real good and check for seal leaks before installing it. i don't want to use trans fluid because it costs too much. plus, i'd like to get something in there than might break up some deposits (but not hurt the seals). i was toying with the idea of just filling it with heating oil (since i have 30 gallons in a drum in my barn), finding a way to spin the input shaft, cycle it through the gears, drain it, fill it with tractor fluid (cheap trans fluid), spin and cycle again, drain it, then use the correct fluid once its installed... any thoughts? and maybe a seal conditioner somewhere along the way?
hopefully i don't need to, but i guess we'll see.
a few questions for you now though, if you don't mind:
1. do you know of anywhere to buy small replacement part for these things - particuarly the rubber clutch fork seal and the shift tower boot (the inner one on the trans, not the big one in the cab)? Ford doesnt seem to carry them and i haven't found them at any aftermarket places. i'll be picking up some other parts at salvage yards, but don't really like to salvage 20 year old rubber
2. what would you use to flush this transmission? like i said, i hope not to rebuild mine, but i do plan to flush it real good and check for seal leaks before installing it. i don't want to use trans fluid because it costs too much. plus, i'd like to get something in there than might break up some deposits (but not hurt the seals). i was toying with the idea of just filling it with heating oil (since i have 30 gallons in a drum in my barn), finding a way to spin the input shaft, cycle it through the gears, drain it, fill it with tractor fluid (cheap trans fluid), spin and cycle again, drain it, then use the correct fluid once its installed... any thoughts? and maybe a seal conditioner somewhere along the way?
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 8
From: Gadsden Purchase
Email is better since FTE doesn't allow my Gmail address for some
stupid reason so I don't get PM notices unless I log in here.
The Email would give a heads up that something's going on. :)
Otherwise it's -way- better to handle it all right here, that's what it's
for. ;)
I got most of my stuff from Global DriveTrain Supply.
Hmmm... is it dirty looking inside? :/
Transmissions in general (let alone one filled with ATF;) are clean as
a whistle inside. I didn't clean the inside part of mine, the outside tho
was a friggin' nightmare! :/ ATF really glues itself down like it means
business.
Cleaned the ZF and the E4od I took out, messed with 'em off and on
for weeks. :/
I started a thread on here about what you like to use to clean stuff. :)
Got all kinds of cool ideas, :) none of which worked worth anything.
Was texting with a gal in Mexico and her brother had owned a garage
he said to use paint thinner, it kinda worked. :) I even tried Red Devil
Lye-enhanced-stuff, it didn't work either. It just made the aluminum
look ugly. LOL :)
What did work was -used-brake-fluid-! LOL :)
"hick paint remover" ...is what I've called it since the late 70's.
Paint it on one day and rinse it off with water the next day.
Rip the label off the container, put the used brake fluid back in there.
Don't tell me you do what you're told and throw that stuff away? ;)
Alvin in AZ
ps-
Ain't this a pretty sight... ? :)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/hoist6a.jpg
...that big ol' hunk of second-guessing-crap is outta there! LOL :)
Ahhh... now don't this look better... ? ;)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/hoist7m.jpg
pps-
'90 F250/351w ^8500# parts truck and a '91 Bronco. Couldn't find a
Bronco I liked with a manual, but didn't like the close ratio gearing
in the Mazda anyway so made my own for -cheaper-. :)
stupid reason so I don't get PM notices unless I log in here.
The Email would give a heads up that something's going on. :)
Otherwise it's -way- better to handle it all right here, that's what it's
for. ;)
1. do you know of anywhere to buy small replacement part...
2. what would you use to flush this transmission?
2. what would you use to flush this transmission?
Hmmm... is it dirty looking inside? :/
Transmissions in general (let alone one filled with ATF;) are clean as
a whistle inside. I didn't clean the inside part of mine, the outside tho
was a friggin' nightmare! :/ ATF really glues itself down like it means
business.
Cleaned the ZF and the E4od I took out, messed with 'em off and on
for weeks. :/
I started a thread on here about what you like to use to clean stuff. :)
Got all kinds of cool ideas, :) none of which worked worth anything.
Was texting with a gal in Mexico and her brother had owned a garage
he said to use paint thinner, it kinda worked. :) I even tried Red Devil
Lye-enhanced-stuff, it didn't work either. It just made the aluminum
look ugly. LOL :)
What did work was -used-brake-fluid-! LOL :)
"hick paint remover" ...is what I've called it since the late 70's.
Paint it on one day and rinse it off with water the next day.
Rip the label off the container, put the used brake fluid back in there.
Don't tell me you do what you're told and throw that stuff away? ;)
Alvin in AZ
ps-
Ain't this a pretty sight... ? :)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/hoist6a.jpg
...that big ol' hunk of second-guessing-crap is outta there! LOL :)
Ahhh... now don't this look better... ? ;)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/hoist7m.jpg
pps-
'90 F250/351w ^8500# parts truck and a '91 Bronco. Couldn't find a
Bronco I liked with a manual, but didn't like the close ratio gearing
in the Mazda anyway so made my own for -cheaper-. :)
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,647
Likes: 1
From: Exton, PA
that does look much better! i seriously can't wait to drop that auto tranny out of there and start being the brains behind the shifting operations.
funny about the paint thinner recommendation. my dad, who is a chemical engineer who worked for Mobil and helped develop Mobil 1, recommended paint thinner, but i was afraid of what it woudl do to the seals. he assured me it'd be fine, but i'd rather not prove him wrong and have to reseal the trans.
good point about it maybe not needing cleaning inside, though. i just assumed it coud use some attention as i bought it used and empty, but i'll have a look down inside from the tower and if its clean as whistle, then, i'll just fill it with fluid, let it sit for a few weeks to check for leaks, drain it and install it. or maybe not drain it and install it if i'm feeling lazy and strong.
and heck no - i don't throw stuff away - which is why i have 30 gallons of heating oil, about 10 gallons of motor oil and about 3 gallons of tractor fluid (all used - except the heating oil, i guess - that'd be tough). wish i knew someone with a waste-oil burner and i'd jsut give the stuff away...
funny about the paint thinner recommendation. my dad, who is a chemical engineer who worked for Mobil and helped develop Mobil 1, recommended paint thinner, but i was afraid of what it woudl do to the seals. he assured me it'd be fine, but i'd rather not prove him wrong and have to reseal the trans.
good point about it maybe not needing cleaning inside, though. i just assumed it coud use some attention as i bought it used and empty, but i'll have a look down inside from the tower and if its clean as whistle, then, i'll just fill it with fluid, let it sit for a few weeks to check for leaks, drain it and install it. or maybe not drain it and install it if i'm feeling lazy and strong.
and heck no - i don't throw stuff away - which is why i have 30 gallons of heating oil, about 10 gallons of motor oil and about 3 gallons of tractor fluid (all used - except the heating oil, i guess - that'd be tough). wish i knew someone with a waste-oil burner and i'd jsut give the stuff away...
Cross-Country
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but possibly the shift fork is just worn. Mine were pretty worn yet my syncro rings were far from shot. I wondered if this might be caused by riding with your hand/arm resting on the shifter with a constant load on the fork and drag on the syncro slider.
Its no too terribly hard to tear one of these down and if you don't want to break things taking it apart, only requires a couple of special puller collets and blind hole bearing puller. I found the collets for pulling syncro hubs on ebay for ~$50 (there are only two required) and the blind hole bearing race puller on amazon.
Check out my rebuild of an S5-47 small block ZF for an idea of what might be involved to overhaul one.
Manual Photos by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Its no too terribly hard to tear one of these down and if you don't want to break things taking it apart, only requires a couple of special puller collets and blind hole bearing puller. I found the collets for pulling syncro hubs on ebay for ~$50 (there are only two required) and the blind hole bearing race puller on amazon.
Check out my rebuild of an S5-47 small block ZF for an idea of what might be involved to overhaul one.
Manual Photos by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 8
From: Gadsden Purchase
DSC00250.jpg photo by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Cool, I didn't take pictures while I had the shifter apart.
One of the creepiest (mechanical) things I've ever seen was how those
hollow nylon blocks ate/wore into the hard bronze block like they did!
I filed the bronze block down to flat again and spaced the nylon blocks
out to leave as little play in there as I felt like I could get away with.
I swear. My two nylon block were not worn. It's hard for me to sit here
and believe it too, I just remember telling myself not to second-guess
myself later because it was and sounds so bizarre. Oh heck, just now
remembering... the bronze block couldn't be -filed- with a brand new
Nicholson file while the block was held tight and me bearing down on it.
That's what's so creepy about it.
I had to -grind- it flat. No kidding.
So this super slick+hard Bronze was eaten away by contact with nylon.
Anyway, the bronze block assembly is tricky to work on IMO because
you've got to support it good while hammering on it and putting it back
together too. I put one part in the freezer and the other part heated it
until it smoked a little (which is and indication of the oil burning off) to
help get it back together.
~400F?
-----------------------------------
DSC00251.jpg photo by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Wow there's another thing that's creepy about a ZF, it's in your very next
picture. It's that rubbery/icky gear shift lever. :/ And you bought a -new-
one? 80
Holy crappola, dude. :) <--{edit}
-----------------------------------
The upper lever is from a '75 C700, the center one is from a '75 T18...
...the bottom one is just-too-gross to talk about. ;)
The drill bit is a 19/32" (~15mm)...
These little set screws didn't hold so good...
So drilled and tapped the ZF's "15mm round stud" part and installed
these...
(also shortened it another inch)
-------------------------------
And BTW, you're right Matt, your synchro "points" look good'n'pointy. :)
Mine are rounded as anything. LOL :)
Alvin in AZ
Cool, I didn't take pictures while I had the shifter apart.
One of the creepiest (mechanical) things I've ever seen was how those
hollow nylon blocks ate/wore into the hard bronze block like they did!
I filed the bronze block down to flat again and spaced the nylon blocks
out to leave as little play in there as I felt like I could get away with.
I swear. My two nylon block were not worn. It's hard for me to sit here
and believe it too, I just remember telling myself not to second-guess
myself later because it was and sounds so bizarre. Oh heck, just now
remembering... the bronze block couldn't be -filed- with a brand new
Nicholson file while the block was held tight and me bearing down on it.
That's what's so creepy about it.
I had to -grind- it flat. No kidding.
So this super slick+hard Bronze was eaten away by contact with nylon.
Anyway, the bronze block assembly is tricky to work on IMO because
you've got to support it good while hammering on it and putting it back
together too. I put one part in the freezer and the other part heated it
until it smoked a little (which is and indication of the oil burning off) to
help get it back together.
~400F?
-----------------------------------
DSC00251.jpg photo by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Wow there's another thing that's creepy about a ZF, it's in your very next
picture. It's that rubbery/icky gear shift lever. :/ And you bought a -new-
one? 80
Holy crappola, dude. :) <--{edit}
-----------------------------------
The upper lever is from a '75 C700, the center one is from a '75 T18...
...the bottom one is just-too-gross to talk about. ;)
The drill bit is a 19/32" (~15mm)...
These little set screws didn't hold so good...
So drilled and tapped the ZF's "15mm round stud" part and installed
these...
(also shortened it another inch)
-------------------------------
And BTW, you're right Matt, your synchro "points" look good'n'pointy. :)
Mine are rounded as anything. LOL :)
Alvin in AZ
Cross-Country
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
DSC00251.jpg photo by kawamatt2 | Photobucket
Wow there's another thing that's creepy about a ZF, it's in your very next
picture. It's that rubbery/icky gear shift lever. :/ And you bought a -new-
one? 80
Holy crappola, dude. :/
-----------------------------------
Wow there's another thing that's creepy about a ZF, it's in your very next
picture. It's that rubbery/icky gear shift lever. :/ And you bought a -new-
one? 80
Holy crappola, dude. :/
-----------------------------------
Different strokes I suppose. My goal is/was a factory correct swap. Not quite $80 but close. Ford Parts - TascaParts.com
I think having the rubber isolator in the shifter handle is a good idea. Might help with those heavy handed types from bending/breaking shift forks or syncro rings. Maybe yours was just dry rotted and weak. I have to pull pretty good to get it to flex.
Thanks for all your pictures dude, I used them quite a bit when R&R'ing mine. Also going to use your idea of lineup studs when re-installing the trans.
New User
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Trying my luck on this 10+ year thread
Cool, thanks. 
That BFH was a little 8# sledge hammer with a broken handle I bought
at a secondhand store for $2 and made a "single jack" out of the parts.
I really like that sucker, it can cut-off frame-rivets other hammers can't.
No kidding, "little taps" work harden the rivet quick as anything then the
chisel stops cutting, the rivet starts dulling the chisel. With that 8# I can
hit 'em hard enough the chisel never dulls and the rivets heads just keep
peeling up and go flying.
Nope, not just for size... xD
Not a very good picture of "the square tube" because it's two curved leaf
springs facing each other. I made do with what I had was all.
That thing is so full of crap it ain't funny. No really, it ain't funny.
There's a thread on FTE somewhere that's got my procedure in it, tells
where I learned it from a guy all the transmission shop owners in town
called "-the- ZF guy in Tucson".
"-the- ZF in Tucson" said...
"who can afford all that tooling?"
"you don't need it anyway"
The book wants all sorts of fixtures to hold things too. :/
I made a ZF stand using an old 5 lug aircooled VW wheel and just bolted
on a hunk of iron the ZF could be bolted to.
"to get a ZF apart I just slam it down on the concrete floor, you know,
with a hunk of carpet to protect the end a little bit"
"rap a rag around it to contain the pieces that fall off"
-the- ZF guy
Here's my picture...
...the delicateprocedure ruins this special-made-ZF-part that you can
replace with an off-the-shelf retainer ring... (little ring is for show)
Yeah to save space and IMO it's still not low enough, 1st is too high in
the ZF. Maybe it'll be ok after I swap my axle gearing from 3.55 to
3.73 or 3.90? Only have 32" tires at the most.
4th gear is 1:1 so it don't have a single "gear", just lock the input shaft
to the "main" shaft and you're in 4th gear.
Finished, fun's over... :/
Alvin in AZ
That BFH was a little 8# sledge hammer with a broken handle I bought
at a secondhand store for $2 and made a "single jack" out of the parts.
I really like that sucker, it can cut-off frame-rivets other hammers can't.
No kidding, "little taps" work harden the rivet quick as anything then the
chisel stops cutting, the rivet starts dulling the chisel. With that 8# I can
hit 'em hard enough the chisel never dulls and the rivets heads just keep
peeling up and go flying.
Nope, not just for size... xD
Not a very good picture of "the square tube" because it's two curved leaf
springs facing each other. I made do with what I had was all.
That thing is so full of crap it ain't funny. No really, it ain't funny.
There's a thread on FTE somewhere that's got my procedure in it, tells
where I learned it from a guy all the transmission shop owners in town
called "-the- ZF guy in Tucson".
"-the- ZF in Tucson" said...
"who can afford all that tooling?
""you don't need it anyway"
The book wants all sorts of fixtures to hold things too. :/
I made a ZF stand using an old 5 lug aircooled VW wheel and just bolted
on a hunk of iron the ZF could be bolted to.
"to get a ZF apart I just slam it down on the concrete floor, you know,
with a hunk of carpet to protect the end a little bit"
"rap a rag around it to contain the pieces that fall off"
-the- ZF guy
Here's my picture...
...the delicate
procedure ruins this special-made-ZF-part that you canreplace with an off-the-shelf retainer ring... (little ring is for show)
Yeah to save space and IMO it's still not low enough, 1st is too high in
the ZF. Maybe it'll be ok after I swap my axle gearing from 3.55 to
3.73 or 3.90? Only have 32" tires at the most.
4th gear is 1:1 so it don't have a single "gear", just lock the input shaft
to the "main" shaft and you're in 4th gear.
Finished, fun's over... :/
Alvin in AZ
Hey new user here and this is a bit of a hill Mary as this post is very old but I got the same problem on my 4x2 1989 f150 with the 4.9 straight 6. Grinds when I try to shift into reverse even when at a complete stop. Does not grind when I turn the truck off and then put it in reverse. Even with the grinding noise I can get to to engage even tho I try to do that as little as possible. Lately I've just been resorting to turning the truck off every time I wanna put it in reverse. If anyone can help me I would be forever grateful. Thanks in advance
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,540
Likes: 2,032
From: North Texas
I have heard of some Bricknose's with a ZF factory, never seen one. Make sure you do not have an M5OD in there.
Check pedal box bushings and the clutch master bushing first. With a 30 year old truck they are junk. Flush the clutch hydraulics while farting around in there and verify no air.
Check pedal box bushings and the clutch master bushing first. With a 30 year old truck they are junk. Flush the clutch hydraulics while farting around in there and verify no air.
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New User
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
I have heard of some Bricknose's with a ZF factory, never seen one. Make sure you do not have an M5OD in there.
Check pedal box bushings and the clutch master bushing first. With a 30 year old truck they are junk. Flush the clutch hydraulics while farting around in there and verify no air.
Check pedal box bushings and the clutch master bushing first. With a 30 year old truck they are junk. Flush the clutch hydraulics while farting around in there and verify no air.
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,540
Likes: 2,032
From: North Texas
Posted this days ago IN YOUR THREAD - https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1679976-m5r2-help.html#post20156142
To observe pedal movement versus master movement takes not much effort aside from head under dash while holding small light and poking clutch pedal with other hand. You would be flabbergasted how far the pedal can move and do absolutely nothing when it comes to the clutch hydraulics.
To observe pedal movement versus master movement takes not much effort aside from head under dash while holding small light and poking clutch pedal with other hand. You would be flabbergasted how far the pedal can move and do absolutely nothing when it comes to the clutch hydraulics.
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