Hello,

Long story short, im taking a 1989 351w and building it for torque. Its not gonna be going into a ford product, but coming from an extensive ford background, i couldnt repower the rig with anything but ford. Ill tell ya what its goin in, but ya gotta promise not to flame me.

With that said, I have an extensive ford performance background but its all related to the 289s and making them rev, make more power, spin faster, and survive on the road tracks.

I need this windsor to pull, and pull hard. Im lookin to get 400ft lbs of torque and have a max rpm of around 4500-5000rpm. Hp is a byproduct of torque, but i really dont care about hp numbers, I need the torque.

The engine i have is from a 1989 ford. Its got a fresh rebuild, bored 30 over with a comp cams cam in it (duration-intake 210 exhaust 214, lift-intake .299 exhaust .303, seperation-114) I got the whole truck with the engine for a song. Im not against trashing that cam if its not what will work best for me.

Ive read this site till im blue in the face and ive honestly read about 4 books on building the windsor. Ive also called several people including ford racing parts. I keep going back to the 392 stroker. It seems about perfect for what i want to do.

My questions--Is the 392 a good reliable torquey engine, which heads should i use (i think the gt40 y's would be good) is a MAF conversion a must (i believe so) which crank should i buy. Can i use the stock rods since its not gonna be a high revver. Should I buy a whole kit or piece meal it.

I do have a budget, altho I know that power and budgets never agree.

I will be running a ford ZF5 5spd transmission behind it.

Any ideas, opinions, good or bad are GREATLY appreciated. Im looking forward to getting this project going.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Will

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Here is an awesome 408 build thread from another forum: Seattle FSB 408 Stroker Build - FSB Forums

Here is the chassis dyno graph

Bronco 408 Stroker Dyno Sheet shows 287.85 RWHP & 392.11 RWTQ. Air Fuel ratio is a flat 13.0 at WOT. Estimated at 350 HP & 510 TQ at Flywheel.

 

Very intersting, thanks for the post.

Anybody else have any other ideas/thoughts/opinion.

Will

 

Keep in mind your SD computer from the 89 ford calculates the amount of air from a table using other sensors around the engine. With MAF you have a wide selection of cams and power upgrades since there is an air meter. As far as SD goes the Crane 444232 is probably the best cam you can hope for but don't expect to be making 400 ft'lbs without doing some other mods.

I personally would swap it to MAF if possible, but depending on what you are doing it might be easier to get a low rise intake and carb it. Either way others would have to recommend a cam since I know SD the best.

GT40's are the best iron head you can put on the 351 w/out going aftermarket and some P&P work help those heads along even more (you can do it yourself with a eastwood kit and die grinder). Oh and SD will NOT support aftermarket heads or GT40's.

Is the engine back from the shop or what? where are you in the rebuild phase? I would suggest putting some flat top pistons in to bump compression from about 8.5 stock to 9.5ish... You want to bump compression but keep it under 10:1 or you'll buying premium gas at the pump...

Also not to be a PITA but why not go with a diesel? It would be easy as hell to run their torque numbers up for pulling...

PS: that comp cam may not be SD friendly if you are keeping the SD system... I can't remember what the spec was but it has to do with lobe seperation to keep the vaccum up...???

 

After further reading i will be going to MAF. I totally forgot that I had everything to swap to MAF at my parents house (from an 89 5.0 mustang)

Ive thought about diesel, but i dont want to go down that road. I sold my diesel last year and i plan to stay without a diesel. I love diesels, but dont need one plus they weigh so much.

Ive read that a good cam, good heads and good tuned maf setup will do 400ftlbs and 350 horse, is that true. It looks that you can do the stroker for a price that isnt to outrageous but if i dont need to then i wont.

The motor is complete. Its been complete for a few years, but was never driven, only run long enough to break in the cam. A buddy needed some money and i bought the entire truck cheap, crushed the truck and now i have a .30 over freshly rebuilt windsor for effectively free.

Thanks again and please keep the opinions/ideas, etc coming.

Will

 

well you should repin and set up your MAF with that 5.0L stuff then. That MAF will probably push 325 HP anyway properly tuned with the right aftermarket goodies! I'm sure Paul or another more senior user will give you some cam suggestions since you'll be going MAF. The only problem is that you probably still have a flat tappet cam which will limit your options...

I'd definalty find a set of GT40's and do some P&P work on them so they breath just as good as a set of aftermarket alum's... Eastwood has a good kit... This is all assuming you have a air die grinder or electric die grinder... Or will buy one to do the work...

Keep in mind the major restrictions on the 351w truck engine where the cast exhaust manifolds and the heads. Once you get this 351w tuned up you'll definatly want some long tube headers and a free flowing exhaust.

So what did you say you were putting this engine in????

 

The SD EFI system will work with all sorts of mods including heads but the motor must produce the same amount and quality of vacuum so that limits you to a mild cam and the stock engine displacement.
MAF EFI directly measures the incoming air volume(mass) and doesn't care about the cam or engine displacement(up to a point), so it can adjust to a much wider array of modifications. It will still need to be recalibrated once the engine fueling demands get beyond about 50% of stock but there are several good systems available for the old Mustang EECs that let you control everything from the drivers seat on a laptop, and they're not that expensive.

An otherwise stock 351 will make 400tq at the crank with the right cam and longtubes but you'll need a bit more displacement to get that much grunt where the rubber meets the road.. depending upon axle gearing and tire size. For a relatively low revving application there is no need to anything but a cast stroker assembly with cast or hyper pistons.. something that is available for under $1k, add a decent set of heads like the RHS 180cc irons and Comp 35-238-3 flat tappet cam and big TQ is what you get.

 

The windsor is going into a 94 toyota landcruiser. I work at a custom toyota off road shop but the straight six just isnt gonna cut it. I love the cruiser but need more power, etc. Currently the cruiser inline 6 puts out 212hp and 275tq (flywheel). If i build this windsor and it only puts out 350tq im gonna be pissed that i went thru the trouble to put it in and only gained 75ftlbs.

One more thing, The cruiser has 4.10s and 285s which come close to 33.5" diameter.

As far as installing the windsor, its gonna fit quite well as will the zf5. Considering what i just did with my buggy this is gonna be easy.

The reason i need the high torque number is several of the places i rockcrawl, I have to pull 3 mile long 9% grades with switchbacks where I have to get out of the throttle and back in. I know the windsor will never be a diesel but i think it will be more than enough. The cruiser weighs 5500 and my buggy,trailer and spare parts/tools only weigh 5k max.

With all that said, i believe a non stroker with the right heads and cam and tune will put out 400ftlbs at the flywheel figure in 20% loss thru drivetrain and im at 320 rear wheel. That should be enough. Or am i thinking way wrong.

If im way off on my thinking please tell me. I want to spend the money in the right places and be happy when its all over.

Thanks again for all the help so far and please keep the thoughts/ideas/opinions coming.

Thanks again
Will

 

IMO, if you can find a used 5.8L roller cam block and some GT40's, I think you'll be good. For your application, you could also sub some factory heads with mild port work & larger valves. Then, just a quality rebuild, a good high lift, split profile roller cam and some long tube headers...you're done. Quick, simple & economical.

 

Why do i need a roller block. Im lookin for down low torque, with reliability. The only reason i would need a roller cam is if i go with a very high lift, correct. Just makin sure i understand what your saying.

Will

 

There are lots more cams available for the roller motors, and since the stock heads are all restrictive on this displacement you will want a high lift(0.500-0.550")/ short duration cam.

 

I plan on using aftermarket heads if that helps at all. I totally understand that the stock heads are restrictive and i dont mind spending money on good heads if the money is well spent.

Will

 

On '95 maf equipped trucks and cars using CABZA or CABZO strategy engine displacement scalar is used as a function of load and affects timing lookup tables. But using the older mustang eec should be good since there is no load function and you are planning for a manual tranny.

 

Anybody else?

I want the power from around 1000-4500 with a max rpm of 5500. From my research, a good cam in a windsor with good heads can easily amke 400 ftlbs. If i dont have to stroke it that would be great. If I need to stroke it then so be it.

I would love to have a roller block, but i dont and considering that I just got a freshly bored 89 block for free I kinda need to try to use it.

Thanks again for all the help and I look forward to your other opinions and knowledge.

Thanks again
Will

 

I have referred to this series of articles before from one of the Mustang related magazines:

Ford 351 Windsor Engine Build - Part 1
Ford Mustang 351 Windsor Engine Replacement Part 2
1989 Ford Mustang GT 351W Engine Part 3

In summary they build a budget 351W for use in a 1989 Mustang. An off the shelf rebuilt 351 short-block, aftermarket RHS heads, a very streetable cam, headers and aftermarket intake manifold .

Here are the chassis dyno results:


Allowing for drivetrain losses the calculated values are 359HP/419TQ. The roller cam profile they used could be replicated on a flat tappet. I would also think you could stay speed density, but it would require a custom tune.