I didn't take it as uncaring and normally I'm 100% with you when it comes to these percentages for the reasons you listed. I think this one is different however. I might not be a coincidence that the first one I've experienced is also the one I feel is the most widespread

The reason I think your numbers need adjustment is the theory that the issue takes some time to show up. of those 250k trucks, how many have enough miles on them to make this issue appear? As far as I know, your estimates are based on inside knowledge from the KTP, but that means they also include trucks sitting on dealer lots. So, a good chunk of that 250k have less than 100 miles. Another good chunk have just hit owner garages and an even bigger chunk are under the mileage numbers of when most of us are seeing this issue. Given that the average yearly mileage for americans is about 12k, and since these are diesels I think it's fair to allow another 25%, so call it 15k... and the truck hasn't been on the market quite 1 year... I think there are relatively few who are experiencing this issue on a regular basis. That doesn't mean their transmission is unaffected. It may just mean that they have only seen it happen one or twice, not enough to cause alarm. Or they just haven't gotten into the "sweet spot" for the issue yet. Possibly they got a new flash recently and the software hasn't had enough time to "learn bad habits", if that is even what is going on here. Or maybe they are just unaffected

My point is that I didn't take anything you said as "rose colored" or "uncaring". I just think the normally correct argument you listed above doesn't work as well for this issue. That said, patience is not a virtue I possess... so it might just be me freaking out

 

It seems there are more and more of us having these problems, programming is just a band-aid... Everyone at Ford that I have spoken with has described a mechanical issue that they are trying to fix with programming... The clutchs and steels in the direct clutch pack are being damaged every time this happens... They dont heal, they are burnt! I would like to know how many people are actually having this problem? Not to mention what happens when someone pulls into traffic and can't get out of the way when their truck decides to go into neutral... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...l#post10133000 Here is another thread about the same problems...

 

My experience with my truck is why I believe the multitude of tolerance stacking variables has provided a difficult target for the engineers to hit.

My truck, when new, had a few trans moments, maybe a half dozen or so in 12000 miles. These were all after a cold soak and before the trans was anywhere near operating temp. The 400/800 upgrade had trans programming improvements within the upgrade. I have not had a single incident since. Many others reported the same results. The same results occurred when the second trans update was released. More satisfied owners. There is still a group of owners that have not been helped. The new flash will certainly send some more customers home happy...hopefully it will be everybody.

Seeing that my patience reputation does not exist...I would likely be a concerned owner as well

Regards

 

and if anyone thinks that Ford has a solution, in their pocket, and is NOT distributing it for some unknown reason to screw their customers.. sheesh.. I've never met such a pessimistic group..

Sam

 

Where was this stated?
Paul said the update is scheduled for a mid-April release.
They're testing it and we have to wait so I at least know they'll release a fix when they have one.

I just don't want to be thrown to the curb at 100,000 miles or less if I have damage at 13,000.

 

ric, I get your thinking on how only a small group come here to complain. the problem is I KNOW that most of us with issues that have mentioned we have an issue did indeed come on here to say how great out trucks are and have said so. I believe what we have is an accurate cross section of trucks that are out there. what other means of feedback is there available to the pubic?? when there is more guys with the same issue than without discounting it as web blather is being an ostrich in the hole.

I think the whole adaptive learning thing needs to be gotten rid of, perhaps the adaptive learning should be left up to the driver to adapt. I also own a 2007 mustang many owners report better peformance after the battery has been disconnected. it seems like adaptive learning hasn't worked out too well in any vehicle ford has produced.

 

I work in a big company too. with complex products.. and while our customers CAN use social networking to discuss issues, we don't staff our support org there. Nor would I expect Ford to do that.. the Official channel for info AND FEEDBACK is thru the dealers.. Ford DEPENDS on this mechanism to work.. yes there are some that don't staff the right people, and some that let the wrong people talk to customers.. I think this is a minority.. they USED to have certification requirements on different vehicle technologies, and were strict about it.. don't know about now.

social networking is good and bad. you sometimes have a more direct channel to your customers voice than the filtered view thru the dealer/support structure.. but you also get more pinpoint grief, which is harder to resolve.

sam

 

I'm reposting what I had written in previous thread regarding how we handle service issues as I feel it's important that all of you understand. My apologies for those that may have read the first part already. Note that I've also added some specifics on adaptive tables and the transmission calibration actions that I had mentioned. It's a bit long winded, my apologies for that.

This background should provide some clarity regarding the concern identification process. First off, a dedicated staff of over 100 technical specialists receive input for our Dealers. This information is captured, keyword coded into a database, part numbers, etc. There's a second group, called product concern engineers that data-mine this database for trends, repeat repairs, etc. Once a concern has been identified, a service fix "count-down" clock is started.

Engineering and Service are measured as part of our performance metrics which is tied directly to our performance reviews including Senior Managements. Some are measured on how fast a new concern was identified, while others are being measure on how quickly a resolution can be released to the dealer network. This creates a "checks" and "balances" type system to make sure that concerns are identified quickly, and that corrective actions are implemented. From the opening to closure of a new concern, rule of thumb is approx 70-90 days, with the majority being resolved much sooner.

Concerns are prioritized, based on severity. First and foremost is "dependability" which is directly tied to the impact to the customer. Then there's confidence, irritation and cosmetic. The reason for such prioritization is that resources are allocated based on the most critical issues first. Of course anything safety related takes precedence. It only takes a handful of concerns typically 6 or less of "confirmed" issues reported from the Dealer back to Ford with a population of <100,000 vehicles to trigger this process, and that scales lower for lower vehicle production volumes or new product introductions/launches.

The company is acutely aware that this is "your" vehicle and that it's your life that's being affected and that you expect a resolution when a concern arises. The people I mentioned above have sole responsibility to drive these issues to closure, that's what they do, that's all they do. Issues are reviewed daily and reported out weekly by a concern management team. If the process is working as it should, progress is being made, actions are in place and closure is forthcoming, all is good. I will also say that there are occasions and circumstances where there can be delays in the development of a permanent corrective action. This is typically caused by insufficient / inconclusive data to make a sound decision or exactly what the root cause of the concern is.

Issues are never ignored, it serves no purpose when your working to be the best automotive company on the planet to not listen to your customers. There are at times disagreements between departments, especially if an issue is considered "normal" by engineering and thus not defined as a concern. However, the same process applies and if field data continues to grow, the Service team will escalate the issue again. I guess the point I'm trying to make that the people here do care and will do everything in their power to get product issues resolved as quickly as possible and there are processes in place to make that happen.

Please keep in mind that the Dealer is in a tough spot when there's no service fix available and engineering is investigating root cause. There's great frustration from all those involved. I'm not making excuses, these vehicles are very complex and it takes a little time to sort through them when an issue does occur.

I would also like to comment on adaptive learning. Adaptive tables were/are probably one of the most important improvements/achievements to ever occur to the fundamental programming logic of powertrain control systems (engine and transmission). There's much variability that occurs during production, from supplier to supplier to final assembly and then during the normal wear process after years of use and environmental factors.

Not sure how many of you recall the days of the carburetor, choke pull-offs, floats, mixture control solenoids, etc. But the basic output was air-fuel mixture controlled by what the O2 sensor was reading. To maintain emissions and performance, fuel was controlled to maintain a stoiciometric ratio. The adaptive tables compensated for things like minor vacuum leaks, air temp, component wear, etc. The same applies today, but with improvements in technology, processing speed, memory capacity, a wider range of variability can be compensated for in what ultimately delivers the refinements that have been achieved and now almost go un-noticed these days with cold starts, idle quality, engine/trans performance and at 100-fold the reduction in emissions. In the case of resetting the tables by disconnecting battery power, everthing is reset to a null state. Fuel delivery as an example would typically default to a rich condition temporarily improving performance at the cost of emissions control until the tables re-learn.


Specific to this transmission, here's what to expect in a few weeks. I won't go as far as to say every nuance has been identified, but this will give you a pretty good idea of what the control strategy affects and how intricate the calibration and contol functions actually are.


Strategy/calibration improvements to address initial upshift flare event
Implement solenoid pre-charge/pulse logic for enhance cold pressure consistency
Utilize new integrated engine torque control tools to minimize shift flare
Modify pressure profiles for improved upshift feel and consistency
Adjustments to adaptive learning rates for more robustness to event variability
Revise detection thresholds and durations for upshift abort events
Revise pressure profiles and target times for improved power-on shift feel robustness
Modify adaptive pressure tables for more consistent compensation
Optimize adaptive learning functions for increased range of authority
Implementation of green KAM compensation to address hardware variability
Improve pressure response for coasting downshift tip-in events to improve feel
Revise power-on/power-off profiles and transition thresholds to match desired element capacity
Recalibration 2-1 pull-in pressure and utilization of target parameters for improved feel and consistency
Modify 3-2 costdown pressures, target shift times and adaptive pressure control learning
Expand adaptive learning on 5-4/5-3 coasting downshifts for improved accuracy and robustness
Prevent unwanted downshifts to 1st hear on heavy braking maneuvers
Revised pressure level and torque modulation triggers for 5-2 downshifts, enable 5-6/5-5-2 COM events
Revise temperature compensation for pressure solenoid transfer functions
Improve response for rolling drive engagements from neutral
Modified tip-in rate for more consistent converter clutch unlocks

The complexity is a monumental challenge. The number of wheel bases, the tire size, axle ratio, gvwr ratings, chassis cert, dyno cert, the list goes on and on. I'm in no way trying to justify some of the anomolies that present themselves from time to time, but just stating the realities of dealing with managing it.

Hope this helps,

-Paul

 

Wow..

Thanks Paul - Responses like that give me confidence that I 'd purchased from the right company...

(of Course Ford is all I've ever owned since 1976.....)

 

I just wish my truck drove like it did when it was new, I will never be convinced adaptive learning is a good thing, the driver is the one who needs to adapt. I also don't see how when a vehicle is operated under a number of different loads such as towing or unloaded that there should be adaptive learning or can be for that matter. maybe that is why sometimes it feels like the vehicle is flooring itself because it adapted to trailer towing but happened to be unloaded at the moment.

manage the vehicle so it adjusts to outside parameters such as temp, alititude etc. but strive to have the vehicle react the same in all events. that is how the learning should be. learn to be the SAME.

let me do the adapting this goes along with ABS brakes its getting to the point where the driver is less in control than ever before/

 

Wow is right!..

and I bet half those are conflicting.. more pressure and less pressure at the same time..

Sam

 

Paul, I know this is said often but we're happy to have you here.
Thanks for the post.

 

I have had this problem occur in manual shift mode which I'm going to have to say heavily leans my opinion toward it being a hardware issue not software.

 

manual mode is all controlled by software..

Sam

 

Paul, I also appreciate the feedback you have given. From what you are saying it does sound like Ford is on this problem and working on a fix. My only complaint is a month ago my truck was in the dealership for almost a week for the shifting problem and some other things, and they explained the symtoms to Ford directly and were told this shifting behavior was normal. I then contacted Ford customer service and was told the same thing. So how can they release a fix only 4 weeks later, for something that wasn't a problem not long before. Ford just needs to tell us they are aware of the problem and they are working on it, not straight up lie about it and I think this would make a lot of us happier.