Well fellas, I got very burnt out trying to read all of the posts on God-really?. I was raised in what the pastor of the church called a Southern Baptist Church. I believe vehemently in about 90% of what I was taught. It's the other 10% that scares the living hell out of me. I really tried to finish all the posts on the other site, but the more I read, the more depressed I got. Let me first address some of the post, but not nearly as many as I would like to. These are in no particular order, as I was scribbling as fast as I could taking notes.
brian a- that was one of the best jokes I have ever heard-I'll have to share that with my family.
tall paul-the Pope-the anti-christ?-why?
chuck6083-your posts were great, they really made me smile.
enduringexplorer-I believe that the bible is God's word, however-man, being the publisher-for lack of better words-is flawed. Who is anyone to say that there were no misinterpretations. As far as 911 goes, sad as it may seem, there has to be some sort of pop. control and without natural disasters, terrorist attacks, whackos like Hitler, and any other of the myriad of things that kill large #'s of people, how bad off would we be right now?
Someone please tell me what IMHO means!
Brncomtb, you say people who don't believe in aliens and such are close-minded right? Hypocritical I say IF you are close-minded enough to not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. You don't have any children do you? I see God on a daily basis in the wonder and thrill of the simple things in my children's eyes. Believe me, kids will flip your whole point of view completely upside down, as you begin to really fear what this world or after this world has in store for them.
Please understand, I AM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND OR PREACH TO ANYONE, I am trying to understand all of this myself.
I believed 100% of what I was taught growing up until one man, sadly I can't recall his name, showed me a few scriptures that were contrary to what I was taught for years, This scared me greatly, exponentially after my daughter was born.
I don't know a lot about other religions, but the way we were taught, you should show everyone you meet the way to God. If you don't, and they go to hell, their blood is on your hands. If you do, and they go to heaven, the more richly you will be awarded in heaven.
I urge anyone who does not believe to read "The Left Behind Series" by Dr. Tim LaHaye, and Jerry B. Jenkins. I'm not sure how many books are in the series, but I have read I think the first 5 or 6, and although fiction, they are based on what is supposed to happen in the last days of earth. I pray I am not around for these days, but brother, I mourn for those that are left behind. When a one-world religion happens, or a one-world currency happens, it's not time to get scared, it's time to panic my friend. The book of revelation in the bible discusses the signs of the end times, and so many are happening AS WE SPEAK, I fear daily for my fellow man. All I can say is, You better be right with your maker dude, I know I'd hate to be wrong, as there is no second chance.
I am sorry, I'm probably rambling, but if anyone could shed some light on the conditional/unconditional salvation debate, please please, post as it would seem to boil down to this for myself and how I choose to raise my children. So sorry for the long post.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-Oct-02 AT 05:38 PM (EST)]IMHO In My Humble(honest?) Opinion.

IMNSHO In My Not So Humble Opinion. (I'm right and I know it)

Another that rolls around here sometimes is:
SWMBO She Who Must Be Obeyed (Usually in reference to wife when discussing funding our 'projects')

Does this really need to be the start of another thread?

 

>if anyone could shed
>some light on the conditional/unconditional salvation
>debate, please please, post as it would seem to boil down to
>this for myself and how I choose to raise my children

unconditional salvation - meaning you can't lose once you have it:

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can ****** them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can ****** them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
(from New International Version)

If I give you an eternal gift, but then take it back because I think you screwed up bad enough to lose it, it wasn't eternal was it? And if I told you it was eternal then I lied didn't I? God does not lie.

Jesus says no one can ****** us out of His hand! Not Satan, not someone else, not even ourselves. That means that once he has given you the gift of eternal life, no one can take it away. That means you can't do anything bad enough to take it away.

Matt 24:13 would seem to imply that if we goof up we can lose salvation:

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
Matt 24:13
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(from New International Version)

However this is not aimed at the person who accepts Jesus as Lord. They are taken in the Rapture when Jesus returns in the clouds and calls them to Him. Jesus was speaking here in answer to the disciples question in 24:3 about how they would know when the time of tribulation was upon them. This verse is aimed ONLY at the Jews who are alive at the time that Anti-Christ is revealed. Those who survive the tribulation alive will be saved when they confess Jesus as Lord at His second coming.

 

Thank you for enlightening me on the abbrev. I am doing my best as I only have about a month's worth of computer experience. To answer the "Do we really need to start another thread?" I think the answer is yes most definitly, if there is anyone out there who is looking for answers as to what is right, like myself. It seems to me that this is the most important thing anyone, whether or not they believe in God, should ever ponder. Besides, let's face FACT, everything of this earth is material, and matters little when we're gone. I'm not trying to stir up anything, I simply think it's great that ALL these great folks that share a common interest in the best truck out there are willing to share their knowledge with other like-minded people. If you think so little of what will happen to you and yours after your physical life ends, I truly pity you friend. Being as the last thread was so long, I simply wondered if anyone would ever get to mine if I didn't start a new one. I am very concerned for my children's ultimate fate, and hungry for knowledge so that my conscience can rest peacefully on the subject. Please do not be offended by anything I have or will say about it.

 

SHartman-thank you. I am familiar with the meaning of the term, but the man I referred to as showing me about unconditional salvation, or should I say conditional salvation spent several hours showing me scripture that pointed towards his point of view. When I was younger, those movies like "A thief in the night" and all of the others that followed really scared me and still do today. I wonder if you've ever read the series of books that I mentioned, they kind of brought it all rushing back to me, especially now with kids, and it's really not pleasant to wonder/worry on a daily basis for me, my wife and kids. I do appreciate the feedback, and take comfort in the fact that people do still care in this screwed up world, and worry about those who "don't really want to start this thread again".

 

The last 3 digits of my Social Security number are 666 - am I in trouble?
Dono

 

Ok, I kept out of the last thread and might wish I had been as smart here too

The conditional salvation viewpoint (as I understand it) recognizes as SHartman pointed out that nothing outside the individual can separate a person from their salvation. However, when we give our lives to Jesus Christ he doesn't take away our free will.

In spite of how much more satisfying life is in Christ, we have the ability to turn our backs on that salvation and lose it - or choose to walk away from it. That's what Hebrews 10:26-31 describes, especially v. 26. Twelve direct references to backsliding and tens of others referring to God's Spirit departing from someone determined to ignore God's presence make a pretty strong case for this view. The apostle Paul describes the daily struggle within us as our old nature wrestles with our new nature for control.

In your S. Baptist circles you should be aware of the Dake Study Bible. It is an awesome work of common sense approach to the scriptures.

Finally, Ephesians 2:8,9 states salvation is a gift of God's grace rec'd by faith. Not earned or on the basis of how good we are.

The whole point of this is to return us to a intimate relationship with the creator like Adam and Eve enjoyed before they walked away from it. Religion is a poor substitute. That's my .02

 

The book of
>revelation in the bible discusses the signs of the end
>times, and so many are happening AS WE SPEAK, I fear daily
>for my fellow man.

This may be too much for some to handle since they have been taught all their lives that Revelation is about the end times. But, the book of Revelation, as it is written, has already happened. Is it relevent today? Yes, but you miss it's message when you start trying to assign the symbols to todays world.

The book of Revelation has been greatly misused.

777

 

So am I to believe that there aren't signs of the end times relevant today?

 

You are supposed to live your life as if tomorrow is the end time. If you have that attitude then it doesn't matter if the end times are approaching or a ways off.

He will return at a time of peace. Wars are common.

 

>The conditional salvation viewpoint (as I understand it)
>recognizes as SHartman pointed out that nothing outside the
>individual can separate a person from their salvation.

The scripture doesn't say no one but yourself can take you from Jesus' hand. It says NO ONE (emphasis mine). That includes the individual. You can't take yourself out His hand either. If you could, you would be stronger than God, and He would be a liar.


>However, when we give our lives to Jesus Christ he doesn't
>take away our free will.
>
>In spite of how much more satisfying life is in Christ, we
>have the ability to turn our backs on that salvation and
>lose it - or choose to walk away from it. That's what
>Hebrews 10:26-31 describes, especially v. 26.

Actually, Hebrews 10:26-31 refers to someone who hears the truth of Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice and rejects it. Notice verse 26 says "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth..." It does not say after we have ACCEPTED the truth. If we reject Jesus, then as verse 26 goes on to say, "no sacrifice for sin is left" since Jesus is the only sacrifice for sin. Since we have rejected Jesus, we can expect what verse 27 promises; "a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God"


>Twelve direct
>references to backsliding and tens of others referring to
>God's Spirit departing from someone determined to ignore
>God's presence make a pretty strong case for this view. The
>apostle Paul describes the daily struggle within us as our
>old nature wrestles with our new nature for control.

For the Christian, when we sin (backslide), our fellowship with God is broken. We don't lose our salvation, we lose the close relationship. When you were a child and disobeyed your parents, did they throw you out of the family? Or did they discipline you so you wouldn't disobey again? Was the discipline uncomfortable? God does the same thing with His children. Doesn't mean we are not still His kids. And again, the references to "someone determined to ignore God's presence" is not speaking of the person who has accepted Jesus but to those who have never accepted Him.


>Finally, Ephesians 2:8,9 states salvation is a gift of God's
>grace rec'd by faith. Not earned or on the basis of how
>good we are.

Amen. And since it is a gift of God which we can't earn by being good enough, why should we think we can be bad enough to lose it? The fact is, we were bad enough to lose it when He gave it to us in the first place.

>Religion is a poor substitute.

Again Amen. Religion is man reaching out to god, trying to please him by being good enough to earn his favor and good enough not to lose his favor. Christianity is God reaching down to man, providing a way for man to reach God, and accepting him as he is.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-Oct-02 AT 11:16 PM (EST)]>But, the book of Revelation, as it is written, has
>already happened.

That is one point of view. Who were the two prophets who prophesied against Anti-Christ in Revelation chapter 11 for 1260 days, were killed by the Beast, and lay in the street for three and a half days before they came back to life? And why is this unusual event not recorded in history somewhere?.

 

>SHartman-thank you. I am familiar with the meaning of the
>term, but the man I referred to as showing me about
>unconditional salvation, or should I say conditional
>salvation spent several hours showing me scripture that
>pointed towards his point of view.

Could it be possible he didn't understand them? The fact is, you have to ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures for you. Don't take anyones interpretation, including mine, as undisputed fact. That's how we get tragedies like Jonesboro and Waco.

>I wonder
>if you've ever read the series of books that I mentioned,

Yes I've read the whole Left Behind series, and am eagerly anticipating the next book in the series.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-Oct-02 AT 11:32 PM (EST)]>That is one point of view. Who were the two prophets who
>prophesied against Anti-Christ in Revelation chapter 11 for
>1260 days, were killed by the Beast, and lay in the street
>for three and a half days before they came back to life? And
>why is this unusual event not recorded in history
>somewhere?.

What is 777 and what meaning is there in the 144,000 saved?

I ask this to test you knowledge of the time.

 

>You are supposed to live your life as if tomorrow is the end
>time. If you have that attitude then it doesn't matter if
>the end times are approaching or a ways off.
>
>He will return at a time of peace. Wars are common.


Ultramagdan:
Revelation states that when Christ returns and reigns on Earth there will be 1000 years of peace. It doesn't state that he will return after peace has been established. No matter how hard man tries (League of Nations, United Nations, Nobel Peace Prizes, etc...) conflicts and wars continue to be waged throughout the world.

Can you give us several examples as to how you believe the events in Revelation have already happened?

As for the war and rumors of war predicted in Revelation, after we anihilate Iraq, maybe we'll reinstate the Marshall Plan and rebuild Bagdad. It's got to be rebuilt somehow, according to Revelation.