GOD-cont'd
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 11,496
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From: Kansas
GOD-cont'd
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-Nov-02 AT 11:28 PM (EST)]>Can you tell me/us what scripture states "she had no sin".
>In Romans 3:23 the bible states "for all have sinned and
>fall short of the glory of God"
The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being born without orginal sin.
"Catholic exegetes, in discussing the Immaculate Conception, begin with the Annunciation. Gabriel greeted Mary by saying "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: Lk 1:28. This is the tradational rendering, based on the Vulgate. The phrase "full of grace" is a translation, by way of the Latin, of the Greek kecharitomene, but it is not a transliteration. in Greek, "full of grace" would be pleres charitos, which is used for Christ in John 1:14 and for Stephen in Acts 6:8, not kecharitomene.
Newer translations, based directly on the Greek, render Luke 1:28 as "Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favor! The Lord is with you." ..or "Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you" These translations are imperfect, since they give the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was no different from that given other women in the Bible. (At least the New Jerusalem Bible, in its footnote to Luke 1:28, says that "you who enjoy God's favor" means "you who have been and remain filled with the divine favor.") If she had been merely "highly favored", in the normal connotations of those words (and it is the normal connotation that many people will read here), her status would have been indistinguishable from that of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, or Sarah, the wife of Abraham; or Anna, the mothe of Samuel-all of whom, were long childless and were "highly favored" because God acceded to their plea to bear children."
Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, cp 1988
>words which by definition includes Mary.
Do you know how many times the King James Bible has been revised? Well over a 1000. It is important to have a decent translation of the Bible when discussing it.
>
>Why do you feel the need to ask Mary for help? In 1 Timothy
>2:5 the bible states "For there is one God, and one mediator
>also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," Therefore,
>I pray to God or to Jesus my mediator.
Again, see the first miracle that Christ performed. He did it because his mommy asked him.
>In Romans 3:23 the bible states "for all have sinned and
>fall short of the glory of God"
The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being born without orginal sin.
"Catholic exegetes, in discussing the Immaculate Conception, begin with the Annunciation. Gabriel greeted Mary by saying "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: Lk 1:28. This is the tradational rendering, based on the Vulgate. The phrase "full of grace" is a translation, by way of the Latin, of the Greek kecharitomene, but it is not a transliteration. in Greek, "full of grace" would be pleres charitos, which is used for Christ in John 1:14 and for Stephen in Acts 6:8, not kecharitomene.
Newer translations, based directly on the Greek, render Luke 1:28 as "Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favor! The Lord is with you." ..or "Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you" These translations are imperfect, since they give the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was no different from that given other women in the Bible. (At least the New Jerusalem Bible, in its footnote to Luke 1:28, says that "you who enjoy God's favor" means "you who have been and remain filled with the divine favor.") If she had been merely "highly favored", in the normal connotations of those words (and it is the normal connotation that many people will read here), her status would have been indistinguishable from that of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, or Sarah, the wife of Abraham; or Anna, the mothe of Samuel-all of whom, were long childless and were "highly favored" because God acceded to their plea to bear children."
Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, cp 1988
>words which by definition includes Mary.
Do you know how many times the King James Bible has been revised? Well over a 1000. It is important to have a decent translation of the Bible when discussing it.
>
>Why do you feel the need to ask Mary for help? In 1 Timothy
>2:5 the bible states "For there is one God, and one mediator
>also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," Therefore,
>I pray to God or to Jesus my mediator.
Again, see the first miracle that Christ performed. He did it because his mommy asked him.
New User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24
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GOD-cont'd
Scripture tells us not to consult the dead:
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." Deuteronomy 18:10-11
"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah 8:19
As pointed out in a previous post, we have only one intercessor (mediator) between God and man...the person of Jesus Christ.
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy 2:5-6
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
And Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12 (referring to Jesus)
In light of scripture, could someone please explain to me how praying to Mary is not 1) consulting the dead and 2) establishing a mediator between God and man apart from Jesus Christ?
Thanks!
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." Deuteronomy 18:10-11
"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah 8:19
As pointed out in a previous post, we have only one intercessor (mediator) between God and man...the person of Jesus Christ.
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy 2:5-6
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
And Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12 (referring to Jesus)
In light of scripture, could someone please explain to me how praying to Mary is not 1) consulting the dead and 2) establishing a mediator between God and man apart from Jesus Christ?
Thanks!
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
GOD-cont'd
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-Nov-02 AT 01:24 PM (EST)]>I admit, taken in the context in which it is presented (open
>letter),it is funny.Otherwise, it borders on
>Judaism-bashing.I'm not saying it is, just that it borders.
I don't think the original letter was intended that way at all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr. Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish. Therefore, the point of the letter was that as a Christian she was using parts of the Old Testament to defend her views, while ignoring the parts of it that she didn't like or found inconvenient. She would hardly be alone in doing this - I've met and heard many Christians that use select parts of the Old Testament to defend particular views...while at the same time ignoring the rest of it.
>Islam? The #1 murderer of Christians (and other faiths)
>worldwide. Hinduism? Nope. #2 murderer of Christians
>worldwide. Surely Buddhists are passive you say. Yes, to
>everyone but Christians. #3 murderers of Christians
>worldwide.
I'm a bit curious - where did you get this data from? Does it only include murder based on religious differences, or all murder, or war, or what? Are these numbers put out by a Christian church or organization, or are they from a more neutral source? It seems that Christians would be the #1 murderer of Christians...
>Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY
>Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of
>unbelievers.
Some do - especially the more extremist groups - though generally they try not to make it too obvious.
For example, a co-worker of mine a few years back went to Africa as a missionary, for a Christian church that shall remain nameless. He was instructed by the church to withold food, water, and medical assistance to any natives that had not converted to Christianity...even if lives were at stake. He didn't agree with that on moral grounds and didn't follow the church's directives, and left that church soon afterward.
Whether we like it or not - or if we say that is not the typical way a Christian should behave - doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. All religions have some extremist groups, and those are the groups that generally cause most of the problems - whether they be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or anything else. As such, it seems to me that each religion needs to be self-policing, at least to some extent...the more mainstream religious figures and denominations need to be more outspoken critics of the policies of the extremist groups. The criticism has to come from internal elements, because when outside groups and other religions get involved it escalates into a much larger religious conflict. How many wars and conflicts throughout history would have been avoided if religious extremists had been brought under control early on by members of their own religion? How many lives could have been saved?
Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm just not smart enough to keep my mouth shut.
LK
>letter),it is funny.Otherwise, it borders on
>Judaism-bashing.I'm not saying it is, just that it borders.
I don't think the original letter was intended that way at all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr. Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish. Therefore, the point of the letter was that as a Christian she was using parts of the Old Testament to defend her views, while ignoring the parts of it that she didn't like or found inconvenient. She would hardly be alone in doing this - I've met and heard many Christians that use select parts of the Old Testament to defend particular views...while at the same time ignoring the rest of it.
>Islam? The #1 murderer of Christians (and other faiths)
>worldwide. Hinduism? Nope. #2 murderer of Christians
>worldwide. Surely Buddhists are passive you say. Yes, to
>everyone but Christians. #3 murderers of Christians
>worldwide.
I'm a bit curious - where did you get this data from? Does it only include murder based on religious differences, or all murder, or war, or what? Are these numbers put out by a Christian church or organization, or are they from a more neutral source? It seems that Christians would be the #1 murderer of Christians...
>Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY
>Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of
>unbelievers.
Some do - especially the more extremist groups - though generally they try not to make it too obvious.
For example, a co-worker of mine a few years back went to Africa as a missionary, for a Christian church that shall remain nameless. He was instructed by the church to withold food, water, and medical assistance to any natives that had not converted to Christianity...even if lives were at stake. He didn't agree with that on moral grounds and didn't follow the church's directives, and left that church soon afterward.
Whether we like it or not - or if we say that is not the typical way a Christian should behave - doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. All religions have some extremist groups, and those are the groups that generally cause most of the problems - whether they be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or anything else. As such, it seems to me that each religion needs to be self-policing, at least to some extent...the more mainstream religious figures and denominations need to be more outspoken critics of the policies of the extremist groups. The criticism has to come from internal elements, because when outside groups and other religions get involved it escalates into a much larger religious conflict. How many wars and conflicts throughout history would have been avoided if religious extremists had been brought under control early on by members of their own religion? How many lives could have been saved?
Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm just not smart enough to keep my mouth shut.
LK
Elder User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 839
Likes: 0
From: Brooklyn
GOD-cont'd
>>I admit, taken in the context in which it is presented (open
>>letter),it is funny.Otherwise, it borders on
>>Judaism-bashing.I'm not saying it is, just that it borders.
>
>I don't think the original letter was intended that way at
>all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was
>Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr.
>Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish.
>
>LK
I think the last time I heard Dr Laura, she was a former Christian converted to the Hebrew faith.
I took the references to the Old Testament as a very clever and funny parody. A "in your face" response, geared to levity not hostility. No more, no less.
:-)
>>letter),it is funny.Otherwise, it borders on
>>Judaism-bashing.I'm not saying it is, just that it borders.
>
>I don't think the original letter was intended that way at
>all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was
>Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr.
>Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish.
>
>LK
I think the last time I heard Dr Laura, she was a former Christian converted to the Hebrew faith.
I took the references to the Old Testament as a very clever and funny parody. A "in your face" response, geared to levity not hostility. No more, no less.
:-)
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
GOD-cont'd
>Scripture tells us not to consult the dead:
>
>"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or
>daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery,
>interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or
>who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11
>
>"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who
>whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their
>God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah
>8:19
>
>
>As pointed out in a previous post, we have only one
>intercessor (mediator) between God and man...the person of
>Jesus Christ.
>
>"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men,
>the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all
>men--the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy
>2:5-6
>
>"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
>No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
>
>And Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for
>there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we
>must be saved." Acts 4:12 (referring to Jesus)
>
>
>In light of scripture, could someone please explain to me
>how praying to Mary is not 1) consulting the dead and 2)
>establishing a mediator between God and man apart from Jesus
>Christ?
>
>Thanks!
1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal *****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of thing. When I pray to Mary I am not asking her to do anything other than to pray on my behalf to God. I do not ask her for forgivenes or miracles or anything else because those are not hers to give. Another reason for some is that they don't believe Mary is dead but alive in heaven with God and Jesus. If she's not dead then you're not consulting the dead.
2. We are not establishing a mediator because we do pray directly to God all the time and at every mass. I pray for other people often. I ask God to give them mercy and guidance. These people aren't coming to me or asking me to do this for them. Same with Mary.
Some believe that Mary has had a more direct influence on humanity than God in recent history. Apparitions at Fatima, Lourdes, and Madjugoria are examples. In all three instances above the apparitions were described as Mary encouraging us to pray for forgiveness and find our way back to God. She has never said to worship her but has always given glory to God.
>
>"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or
>daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery,
>interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or
>who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11
>
>"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who
>whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their
>God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah
>8:19
>
>
>As pointed out in a previous post, we have only one
>intercessor (mediator) between God and man...the person of
>Jesus Christ.
>
>"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men,
>the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all
>men--the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy
>2:5-6
>
>"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
>No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
>
>And Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for
>there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we
>must be saved." Acts 4:12 (referring to Jesus)
>
>
>In light of scripture, could someone please explain to me
>how praying to Mary is not 1) consulting the dead and 2)
>establishing a mediator between God and man apart from Jesus
>Christ?
>
>Thanks!
1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal *****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of thing. When I pray to Mary I am not asking her to do anything other than to pray on my behalf to God. I do not ask her for forgivenes or miracles or anything else because those are not hers to give. Another reason for some is that they don't believe Mary is dead but alive in heaven with God and Jesus. If she's not dead then you're not consulting the dead.
2. We are not establishing a mediator because we do pray directly to God all the time and at every mass. I pray for other people often. I ask God to give them mercy and guidance. These people aren't coming to me or asking me to do this for them. Same with Mary.
Some believe that Mary has had a more direct influence on humanity than God in recent history. Apparitions at Fatima, Lourdes, and Madjugoria are examples. In all three instances above the apparitions were described as Mary encouraging us to pray for forgiveness and find our way back to God. She has never said to worship her but has always given glory to God.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 465
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GOD-cont'd
<snip>
>I don't think the original letter was intended that way at
>all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was
>Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr.
>Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish.
Nope, Dr Laura is Jewish. She was non-practicing early on I think because one parent was christian and the other jewish and I don't believe she was brought up strongly either way. Later on as an adult she embraced Judiasm.
>Therefore, the point of the letter was that as a Christian
>she was using parts of the Old Testament to defend her
>views, while ignoring the parts of it that she didn't like
>or found inconvenient. She would hardly be alone in doing
>this - I've met and heard many Christians that use select
>parts of the Old Testament to defend particular
>views...while at the same time ignoring the rest of it.
>
This was my take on the letter.
>I don't think the original letter was intended that way at
>all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was
>Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr.
>Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish.
Nope, Dr Laura is Jewish. She was non-practicing early on I think because one parent was christian and the other jewish and I don't believe she was brought up strongly either way. Later on as an adult she embraced Judiasm.
>Therefore, the point of the letter was that as a Christian
>she was using parts of the Old Testament to defend her
>views, while ignoring the parts of it that she didn't like
>or found inconvenient. She would hardly be alone in doing
>this - I've met and heard many Christians that use select
>parts of the Old Testament to defend particular
>views...while at the same time ignoring the rest of it.
>
This was my take on the letter.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
GOD-cont'd
>Nope, Dr Laura is Jewish.
Ah, I didn't know that - and if that's the case then I apologize for my mistake. Sorry...I'm really not much of an expert on popular culture and that sort of thing. Considering that I hate being wrong, I sure seem to do it an awful lot...
I still stand behind the rest of my post, but I reserve the right to change all my opinions without prior notice.
LK
Ah, I didn't know that - and if that's the case then I apologize for my mistake. Sorry...I'm really not much of an expert on popular culture and that sort of thing. Considering that I hate being wrong, I sure seem to do it an awful lot...
I still stand behind the rest of my post, but I reserve the right to change all my opinions without prior notice.
LK
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From: Where they take the census by counting the appliances on the front porch and multiplying by five
GOD-cont'd
>I don't think the original letter was intended that way at
>all - in fact, I believe the actual target of the letter was
>Christians. I think - though I'm really not sure - that Dr.
>Laura considers herself to be Christian, not Jewish.
That may be.I've heard her show before and she is married to a Jewish man and practices his religion. Though I'm sure she's familiar with Christianity.
>Therefore, the point of the letter was that as a Christian
>she was using parts of the Old Testament to defend her
>views, while ignoring the parts of it that she didn't like
>or found inconvenient. She would hardly be alone in doing
>this - I've met and heard many Christians that use select
>parts of the Old Testament to defend particular
>views...while at the same time ignoring the rest of it.
People of all religions do this as well. You are correct. Case in point, the muslim's who state that Islam is a peaceful religion. Anyone who's studied the history of Islam, as well as reading the Koran, knows it's anything but peacful.
>
>>Islam? The #1 murderer of Christians (and other faiths)
>>worldwide. Hinduism? Nope. #2 murderer of Christians
>>worldwide. Surely Buddhists are passive you say. Yes, to
>>everyone but Christians. #3 murderers of Christians
>>worldwide.
>
>I'm a bit curious - where did you get this data from? Does
>it only include murder based on religious differences, or
>all murder, or war, or what? Are these numbers put out by a
>Christian church or organization, or are they from a more
>neutral source?
I get this information from two sources. "Voice of the Martyrs" organization which has a website you can check out and Mission Network News which has a website as well.This information pertains to those Christians who've been murdered or enslaved because they wouldn't denounce Christ specifically. Admittedly they are Christian organizations, but I don't think you'll find much of it reported in the secular media. BTW, President Bush just signed a Bill or something about sanctions against Sudan for the violence against Christians by Muslims there. I'm not real familiar with it, but if you're interested I'll find out.
It seems that Christians would be the #1
>murderer of Christians...
Why would you feel this way? I don't understand.
>
>>Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY
>>Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of
>>unbelievers.
>
>Some do - especially the more extremist groups - though
>generally they try not to make it too obvious.
Which ones? How would they keep from it?
>
>For example, a co-worker of mine a few years back went to
>Africa as a missionary, for a Christian church that shall
>remain nameless. He was instructed by the church to withold
>food, water, and medical assistance to any natives that had
>not converted to Christianity...even if lives were at stake.
> He didn't agree with that on moral grounds and didn't
>follow the church's directives, and left that church soon
>afterward.
I don't blame him. So would I. They're obviously NOT following the teachings of Christ, and as I stated above, anyone can make a passage say whatever they'd like.I'm afraid there are wacko's in every "religion" as well as the non-religious.
>
>Whether we like it or not - or if we say that is not the
>typical way a Christian should behave - doesn't mean that it
>doesn't happen. All religions have some extremist groups,
>and those are the groups that generally cause most of the
>problems - whether they be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or
>anything else. As such, it seems to me that each religion
>needs to be self-policing, at least to some extent..
Excellent point LK. We are told by the Apostle Paul that we are to admonish other Christians when they do wrong, then forgive them and return them to their place in fellowship, BUT ONLY if they discontinue whatever was offensive to others or against the teachings of Christ,- adultery, theft, etc.
.the
>more mainstream religious figures and denominations need to
>be more outspoken critics of the policies of the extremist
>groups.
Absolutely.
The criticism has to come from internal elements,
>because when outside groups and other religions get involved
>it escalates into a much larger religious conflict. How
>many wars and conflicts throughout history would have been
>avoided if religious extremists had been brought under
>control early on by members of their own religion? How many
>lives could have been saved?
I'm sure quite a few.You are right and I agree wholeheartedly. Like I replied in the earlier thread, there are bad apples in every barrel. Whether you're talking about race, creed, gender, etc. However, I'm sure you'll agree, to stereotype is wrong as well. I guess it just comes down to discernment, and actions. I always go on actions. A person can talk a good game, or politics, or for that matter say they're a Christian, but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.
>
>Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm just not
>smart enough to keep my mouth shut.
>
>LK
I didn't think you were trying to start an argument. I thought it was an excellent reply to mine. Good questions deserving of an answer! As far as keeping the mouth shut,man, is that difficult or what?! Take care.
Chuck
New User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
GOD-cont'd
>
>1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal
>*****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of
>thing. When I pray to Mary I am not asking her to do
>anything other than to pray on my behalf to God. I do not
>ask her for forgivenes or miracles or anything else because
>those are not hers to give. Another reason for some is that
>they don't believe Mary is dead but alive in heaven with God
>and Jesus. If she's not dead then you're not consulting the
>dead.
>
I would suggest you read Deuteronomy to get the context of the scripture. These were God's commands to the Israelites and certainly not "seances"......in fact, we can fairly easily conclude from the scripture in Deuteronomy that God does not want us participating in seances either.....seances being meetings where spiritual contact is attempted with the dead. This scripture is very applicable today.....God wants us to consult Him and His word and stay away from astrology, witchcraft, fortune tellers, horoscopes, or any of the other modern divination techniques. He wants us to consult Him and Him alone.....not because He is a cosmic killjoy, but because He cares for us and does not want us to get messed up and lead astray by satan's tools.
I am very interested in knowing where it says in God's word that there are special rules for Mary. I have read God's word several times, but I cannot remember reading anything that excludes Mary from the rest of humanity. If you can enlighten me, please help me out. Specifically, if there are any scriptures directing us to ask Mary to intercede for us, I need to know them so I may be obedient to God's word.
Thanks!
>1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal
>*****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of
>thing. When I pray to Mary I am not asking her to do
>anything other than to pray on my behalf to God. I do not
>ask her for forgivenes or miracles or anything else because
>those are not hers to give. Another reason for some is that
>they don't believe Mary is dead but alive in heaven with God
>and Jesus. If she's not dead then you're not consulting the
>dead.
>
I would suggest you read Deuteronomy to get the context of the scripture. These were God's commands to the Israelites and certainly not "seances"......in fact, we can fairly easily conclude from the scripture in Deuteronomy that God does not want us participating in seances either.....seances being meetings where spiritual contact is attempted with the dead. This scripture is very applicable today.....God wants us to consult Him and His word and stay away from astrology, witchcraft, fortune tellers, horoscopes, or any of the other modern divination techniques. He wants us to consult Him and Him alone.....not because He is a cosmic killjoy, but because He cares for us and does not want us to get messed up and lead astray by satan's tools.
I am very interested in knowing where it says in God's word that there are special rules for Mary. I have read God's word several times, but I cannot remember reading anything that excludes Mary from the rest of humanity. If you can enlighten me, please help me out. Specifically, if there are any scriptures directing us to ask Mary to intercede for us, I need to know them so I may be obedient to God's word.
Thanks!
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
GOD-cont'd
>>
>>1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal
>>*****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of
>>thing.
<snip>
>I would suggest you read Deuteronomy to get the context of
>the scripture. These were God's commands to the Israelites
>and certainly not "seances"......in fact, we can fairly
>easily conclude from the scripture in Deuteronomy that God
>does not want us participating in seances either.....seances
>being meetings where spiritual contact is attempted with the
>dead.
<snip>
You misunderstand and I didn't state it clearly enough. What I meant was these passages:
>"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or
>daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery,
>interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or
>who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11
>
>"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who
>whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their
>God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah
>8:19
>
>
Sound like they are REFERRING to seances. Much as you said above at the end of your paragraph.
>I am very interested in knowing where it says in God's word
>that there are special rules for Mary. I have read God's
>word several times, but I cannot remember reading anything
>that excludes Mary from the rest of humanity. If you can
>enlighten me, please help me out. Specifically, if there
>are any scriptures directing us to ask Mary to intercede for
>us, I need to know them so I may be obedient to God's word.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
I'll see what I can find but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think its going to say it in the bible. However there are other works by early christians where these beliefs come from.
>>1. The scriptures you cite sound like seances (sp?), crystal
>>*****, asking uncle mort where the will is hidden type of
>>thing.
<snip>
>I would suggest you read Deuteronomy to get the context of
>the scripture. These were God's commands to the Israelites
>and certainly not "seances"......in fact, we can fairly
>easily conclude from the scripture in Deuteronomy that God
>does not want us participating in seances either.....seances
>being meetings where spiritual contact is attempted with the
>dead.
<snip>
You misunderstand and I didn't state it clearly enough. What I meant was these passages:
>"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or
>daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery,
>interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or
>who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11
>
>"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who
>whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their
>God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah
>8:19
>
>
Sound like they are REFERRING to seances. Much as you said above at the end of your paragraph.
>I am very interested in knowing where it says in God's word
>that there are special rules for Mary. I have read God's
>word several times, but I cannot remember reading anything
>that excludes Mary from the rest of humanity. If you can
>enlighten me, please help me out. Specifically, if there
>are any scriptures directing us to ask Mary to intercede for
>us, I need to know them so I may be obedient to God's word.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
I'll see what I can find but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think its going to say it in the bible. However there are other works by early christians where these beliefs come from.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
GOD-cont'd
>I get this information from two sources. "Voice of the
>Martyrs" organization which has a website you can check out
>and Mission Network News which has a website as well.This
>information pertains to those Christians who've been
>murdered or enslaved because they wouldn't denounce Christ
>specifically. Admittedly they are Christian organizations,
>but I don't think you'll find much of it reported in the
>secular media.
Ah, okay - I was just wondering where the numbers came from, and which specific murders they were including. Now that I know the basis behind them, your numbers make sense - even the fact that Buddhists are number three on the list. If I rank the top 10 world religions in number of members, they show up like this:
1 - Christianity (33%)
2 - Islam (20%)
3 - Hinduism (13%)
4 - Buddhism (6%)
5 - Sikhism (0.4%)
6 - Judaism (0.2%)
7 - Baha'ism (0.1%)
8 - Confucianism (0.1%)
9 - Jainism (0.1%)
10 - Shintoism (0.05%)
Not surprisingly, the top 3 non-Christian religions also happen to be the top 3 murders of Christians, and in the same order. It also isn't surprising that Buddists would be #3 on the list - because there are approximately 324 million Buddhists, and they far outnumber even the combined total of all the remaining religions on the list (52.1 million). Even if Buddhists were 15 times more peaceful towards Christians than the Sikhs, they would still be at #3 on the list simply because there are so many of them.
It would be interesting to see the number of murders plotted versus the number of followers of a given religion...that might be a more accurate estimate of tolerance to Christianity.
> It seems that Christians would be the #1
>>murderer of Christians...
>
>Why would you feel this way? I don't understand.
I said that because I wasn't sure which particular deaths were included - if the death total is Christians that were killed because they would not deny Christ, then Christianity would most certainly not be on the list.
However, if the list included all Christian murders then I think that Christians would have been number one - by virtue of the fact that Christians live among Christians, so the person murdering any given Christian would most likely be another Christian. Also, most Muslims would be murdered by Muslims, most Hindus by Hindus, and most Buddhists by other Buddhists. I wasn't saying that Christians were any more aggressive, just that most religions are separated geographically...and people tend to murder those who live nearby, which would probably be people of their own religion.
>>>Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY
>>>Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of
>>>unbelievers.
>>
>>Some do - especially the more extremist groups - though
>>generally they try not to make it too obvious.
>
> Which ones? How would they keep from it?
Technically I believe the KKK would count as Christian, as would many neo-**** groups...or at least that's what they consider themselves. They are far - really far - from mainstream, and their views are not remotely Christian in my opinion, but I think they would still technically have to count as extremist Christians. And, as I mentioned, these are the types of extremist groups that tend to cause all the problems...and unfortunately every religion seems to have them. Even Buddhism has militant extremist groups, even though it makes no sense whatsoever in light of their religious teachings. Mainstream Buddhists and mainstream Hindus are no more violent than mainstream Christians, and yet all three religions seem to spawn fringe groups that want to kill nonbelievers. Mainstream Muslims...well, let's just say that I'm not going to comment on that.
How do these groups start? What causes a person to get to the point where they feel justified in killing anyone who doesn't support their own beliefs, even though killing them violates those same beliefs? Is it some sort of mental disorder, or a lust for power, or....? And how to they always manage to find people gullible enough to follow them, to give their own lives for their 'cause'?
I just don't understand humans.
LK
>Martyrs" organization which has a website you can check out
>and Mission Network News which has a website as well.This
>information pertains to those Christians who've been
>murdered or enslaved because they wouldn't denounce Christ
>specifically. Admittedly they are Christian organizations,
>but I don't think you'll find much of it reported in the
>secular media.
Ah, okay - I was just wondering where the numbers came from, and which specific murders they were including. Now that I know the basis behind them, your numbers make sense - even the fact that Buddhists are number three on the list. If I rank the top 10 world religions in number of members, they show up like this:
1 - Christianity (33%)
2 - Islam (20%)
3 - Hinduism (13%)
4 - Buddhism (6%)
5 - Sikhism (0.4%)
6 - Judaism (0.2%)
7 - Baha'ism (0.1%)
8 - Confucianism (0.1%)
9 - Jainism (0.1%)
10 - Shintoism (0.05%)
Not surprisingly, the top 3 non-Christian religions also happen to be the top 3 murders of Christians, and in the same order. It also isn't surprising that Buddists would be #3 on the list - because there are approximately 324 million Buddhists, and they far outnumber even the combined total of all the remaining religions on the list (52.1 million). Even if Buddhists were 15 times more peaceful towards Christians than the Sikhs, they would still be at #3 on the list simply because there are so many of them.
It would be interesting to see the number of murders plotted versus the number of followers of a given religion...that might be a more accurate estimate of tolerance to Christianity.
> It seems that Christians would be the #1
>>murderer of Christians...
>
>Why would you feel this way? I don't understand.
I said that because I wasn't sure which particular deaths were included - if the death total is Christians that were killed because they would not deny Christ, then Christianity would most certainly not be on the list.
However, if the list included all Christian murders then I think that Christians would have been number one - by virtue of the fact that Christians live among Christians, so the person murdering any given Christian would most likely be another Christian. Also, most Muslims would be murdered by Muslims, most Hindus by Hindus, and most Buddhists by other Buddhists. I wasn't saying that Christians were any more aggressive, just that most religions are separated geographically...and people tend to murder those who live nearby, which would probably be people of their own religion.
>>>Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY
>>>Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of
>>>unbelievers.
>>
>>Some do - especially the more extremist groups - though
>>generally they try not to make it too obvious.
>
> Which ones? How would they keep from it?
Technically I believe the KKK would count as Christian, as would many neo-**** groups...or at least that's what they consider themselves. They are far - really far - from mainstream, and their views are not remotely Christian in my opinion, but I think they would still technically have to count as extremist Christians. And, as I mentioned, these are the types of extremist groups that tend to cause all the problems...and unfortunately every religion seems to have them. Even Buddhism has militant extremist groups, even though it makes no sense whatsoever in light of their religious teachings. Mainstream Buddhists and mainstream Hindus are no more violent than mainstream Christians, and yet all three religions seem to spawn fringe groups that want to kill nonbelievers. Mainstream Muslims...well, let's just say that I'm not going to comment on that.
How do these groups start? What causes a person to get to the point where they feel justified in killing anyone who doesn't support their own beliefs, even though killing them violates those same beliefs? Is it some sort of mental disorder, or a lust for power, or....? And how to they always manage to find people gullible enough to follow them, to give their own lives for their 'cause'?
I just don't understand humans.
LK
Elder User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
From: Where they take the census by counting the appliances on the front porch and multiplying by five
GOD-cont'd
>
>How do these groups start? What causes a person to get to
>the point where they feel justified in killing anyone who
>doesn't support their own beliefs, even though killing them
>violates those same beliefs? Is it some sort of mental
>disorder, or a lust for power, or....? And how to they
>always manage to find people gullible enough to follow them,
>to give their own lives for their 'cause'?
>
>I just don't understand humans.
>
>LK
Neither do I.
LK, that was one of the best replies on this subject I've read in awhile.
I don't understand their reasoning either. probably never will. What was the deal with Waco? Jim Jones, KKK, Louis Farrakhan, etc.
It is sad. They say that prostitution is the world's oldest profession. Well, the second then is killing your fellow human being.And come to think of it, Technology has NEVER lagged in that endeavor.
Excellent points in this and your previous reply.
Chuck
Junior User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: USA
GOD-cont'd
>>I am very interested in knowing where it says in God's word that there are special rules for Mary. I have read God's word several times, but I cannot remember reading anything that excludes Mary from the rest of humanity. If you can enlighten me, please help me out. Specifically, if there are any scriptures directing us to ask Mary to intercede for us, I need to know them so I may be obedient to God's word.
I think that if you read the bible and take it only at face value then you miss a lot of what is meant. You have to read it very carefully and be careful to take it in context because you can take a single passage and often interpret it to mean anything you want. The bible points out that Jesus preformed the first miracle because his mother asked him to. Even though he was reluctant his mother persuaded him. Now we could have been just told of the miracle and it could have been left at that, but we were told that his mother Mary, came and asked for his help and because of her he preformed the miracle. Now I don't think that they told us Mary was the one that persuaded him for no reason. And isn't one of the commandments to honor thy mother and thy father. Granted God could be above his own law, but that doesn't seem very characteristic of Jesus to me. Also refer to a previous post that explaind what was meant by the words of the angle that apeared to Mary. Just MY opinions here, I am by no means a scholar on the subject.
I think that if you read the bible and take it only at face value then you miss a lot of what is meant. You have to read it very carefully and be careful to take it in context because you can take a single passage and often interpret it to mean anything you want. The bible points out that Jesus preformed the first miracle because his mother asked him to. Even though he was reluctant his mother persuaded him. Now we could have been just told of the miracle and it could have been left at that, but we were told that his mother Mary, came and asked for his help and because of her he preformed the miracle. Now I don't think that they told us Mary was the one that persuaded him for no reason. And isn't one of the commandments to honor thy mother and thy father. Granted God could be above his own law, but that doesn't seem very characteristic of Jesus to me. Also refer to a previous post that explaind what was meant by the words of the angle that apeared to Mary. Just MY opinions here, I am by no means a scholar on the subject.