'95 F-250 PSD 4x4 5-speed extended cab, aprx. 64000-ish miles. Road tires on Alcoa 16" rims. Yes, I did a search; got some insight, but no definitive answers.

Purchased the truck a few months ago with rusy brake lines. Had them, along with the front flex hoses, replaced. Drove it for a week and it was fine. Then pulsating / roughness from the front, and the left front was getting kinda hot. IR thermometer on rotor (thru a hole in the rim) read 220-ish F. We don't have time to do the work ourselves lately, so we took it in to a local facility. They found one pad on the left side down almost to nothing, and bent, and a stone in there. Rotor was shot. They replaced pads and rotors with heavy-duty versions of both, and cleaned and adjusted the rears, and bled the calipers to push back the pistons. They also repacked the front bearings, since they had to take it apart to pull the rotors. Dunno how long he test drove it, but it was supposedly fine.

I picked up the truck and drove it home this evening. Never over 35-ish MPH, surface streets. Brakes felt great; fairly (perhaps too?) hard pedal. But when I got home, I noticed the truck wasn't coasting properly. When I got out, there was an awful smell of brake material, and smoke coming from BOTH rotors. Put the IR on them and it read 390F left, 260F right!

Let it cool for a while, and it stopped dragging (coasted okay), so I took it for another test drive. It took maybe 10-12 minutes of driving, 'til it got to the same condition; dragging and VERY hot.

The truck drifts ever so slightly to the left when I coast. It does NOT pull to either side when I brake.

So evidently they did something wrong. Perhaps he saw the stone and the shot pad, and thought that was the whole trouble, and just didn't bother to see if the calipers were returning properly. Obviously he didn't take it on a very long test drive. Or maybe he goofed up the reassembly with the bearings, etc, and it's heating up from rotation, and _that's_ causing expansion causing the drag.

So....

1) What is it? Both calipers seizing up? Flex hose problem? (I'd say that's unlikely, since she drove it on the new hoses for a week with no incident.) Some incompatibility between the particular pads and rotors? Bearing/hub assembly goof-up?

2) What damage is done just from this heating? Since it's heat that can ruin pads and warp rotors, is there a risk that this has happened, given that everything got pretty hot twice?

3) How should we approach the shop? If indeed there's a risk of permanent damage to the new pads or rotors, we'll demand that they replace them at their expense. What else should we request that they replace, or test, or determine?

TIA

 

Hmm. First thing that comes to my mind would be if the brake pedal is just barely applied when it's in the released position. If that's the case it would let the front pads just be barely applied and over time they'd heat up and start smoking. I'm not sure how to check for brake pedal clearance off the top of my head but someone might be able to say how.

If the brake pads are smoking I wouldn't think that an over-tighten wheel bearing would do that (still not good for the bearing but shouldn't affect the pads if they're fully released.) It could be both front calipers sticking but since the RF is starting to smoke now that leads me back to the brake pedal issue. If you can, jack up the front of the truck and try turning the front wheels and see if you can feel drag on one or both of the front wheels.

 

If the bearings had that much friction in them to cause a brake heat up to near 400F, they'd be wiped out by now, and your front wheels would be very very sloppy. I'd say the calipers are sticking. 65k miles is something very achievable on factory calipers, so I'd say it's likely they are still what the truck left the assembly line with. The heat issue - if rotors ain't warped, keep them. Pads do glaze when ran hot like that, but if there are no visible cracks they may be okay - personally I'd sand them down to new fresh surface, but considering it's a shop might as well just replace them with new ones, if the shop agrees on that. 390F is a bit high, but not uncommon after a heavy braking event, such as 75 to zero with both feet on the brake pedal, we used to set up the thermocouples on the brake dynos so they release the brakes at 400F, and we'd put thousands of miles on a set of pads like that - still, if possible, replace yours with new. How to approach the shop - that I dunno, I always do all my work myself, so I never have anyone else to blame when something messes up.

 

Yeah that's good point about heat transference that I forgot (it's almost 1am here so my mind is ready to sleep). What is throwing me is he's saying the RF is starting to do this now which made me wonder about the brake pedal being just slightly applied. It very well could be a sticking caliper but having brake pedal height checked wouldn't be a bad idea as well.

 

I would be willing to bet dinner that they did not fully disassemble, and de-rust, and (properly) lube all the caliper hardware and caliper-surfaces. And when I say "de-rust" I mean REPLACE any of the hardware that did not clean up nicely on a wire wheel. I've not done the brakes on an F-250 yet, but I've done a lot of brakes. (I understand the F-250's are a two-piston caliper, unlike the F-150's single-piston design, but the principals are the same--and I'm sure the hardware is similar, at least in FUNCTION.)

After 15 years, the calipers NEED to be completely disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled with a high-heat, brake-specific "never seize-type" product. At least, in the NE they do.

The caliper pistons themselves might not necessarily be sticking, but I'd be surprised if the calipers' sliding surfaces were not rust-bound. Also, the pistons themselves could very well be hanging up--it's not uncommon. That's why Ford suggests changing brake fluid every two years--because it's hygroscopic--it absorbs moisture from the air, and the pistons/bores rust.

How you approach the shop?

Well, you've got to examine the calipers yourself, first, and confirm that the hardware and calipers'-sliding surfaces were NOT cleaned and lubed. (The fact that they didn't charge you for new caliper hardware [assuming it's similar to an F-150's brakes, of course] would suggest they did NOT take the calipers apart. I.e., that's a point for your argument, right there). Now, you can't check the action of the caliper pistons without removing the calipers and disassembling them, but this won't be necessary if you can confirm that the calipers where never disassembled/cleaned/lubed to begin with.

So, ONLY IF I'm right and the calipers were rust-bound, and dragging, and therefore NOT cleaned and lubed by the shop, then I would approach them--and I would do it politely, but firmly.

My goal, if I were you:

I'd say:

"I feel you should have suggested rebuilt calipers be used--after all, YOU are the experts. I didn't ask for it at the time because I trusted you guys--but I've since researched it and I'm told that the calipers should have been completely broken down, cleaned, lubed and reassembled, possibly using new hardware-and the piston-action should have been checked and confirmed as free. Since that's a lot of work, I'm told most shops just go with a high-quality, rebuilt caliper--you should have informed me of the need for this. I would have gladly paid for rebuilt calipers, had you asked. But you didn't, and here we are. I'm not trying to be difficult, but fair is fair.

Now, the pads are cooked and I'm not confident about the rotors. I will pay for the rebuilt calipers, as I would have anyway. But I want you to:

Please do a complete brake job, including new pads and at least cut the rotors. And IF the rotors warp out within, say, 3 months, I want new rotors. So to save us all that, why don't you just hang new rotors on while you're at it?"

Again, that's only IF you confirm they never did the maintenance on the calipers. I had a shop do a complete brake job exactly ONCE, while I was stranded, in winter, out of town. They never removed the built-up rust in the rear caliper hangers. Initially, the rust-swelled hangers just bound the pads' return (Subaru Outback) as we smelled the rear brakes and I confirmed they were hot even while not being used--just from going down the road. Then, the rears eventually quit applying at all, and the fronts did 100% of the work. Finally, the front rotors over-heated and warped out--severely (girlfriend's car--I'm never told anything until it's too late, and usually, I'm never told at all--I just find this stuff out when I happen to borrow her car...). Eventually, I figured all of this out, when I redid them.

Result: the need for another total brake job, which I did myself--and it's been fine, for three years. Of course, a bolt broke in the caliper hanger (a $130. part) which I managed to drill out, thus saving the part--but that's why shops don't like to do this stuff (1997 car, so, some rust on the brakes). Basically, they just hung the pads, cut the rotors and sent me on my way. 30-60 minutes more (which they could have CHARGED FOR, as it's an older car) would have fixed the problem--but they didn't care. It happens.

Good luck and let us know.

Big Six

 

Well, I didn't remove anything (and we can't right now; time constraints), but I did look under there, and I can see that he DID grind down the surfaces on the caliper (or is it the bracket?) where the ends of the pads slide, and they're very clean. When you say "disassemble", do you mean he should've removed the pistons from the calipers and checked them out? What caliper hardware is there, other than the pins and the boots? From the appearance of the hex-heads, it looks like he used the original pins.

 

Perhaps I was not clear when I explained this, but you should be able to assess the condition of the bore/piston relationship without removing the pistons. That's just too much work and they'd probably leak when you put 'em back, if they're older. I was trying to explain you can just move them back and forth over their full range (which they'll now need to, again, to accept the fatter, new pads) and make an assessment of their condition. Though hard to move by hand, they should compress inward without drama with a big c-clamp. Then pump them back out, and repeat, and see how they feel. If they're not uniformly-resistant over their entire range, I would go for the rebuilt calipers. Rebuilts are always cheaper and/or easier than rebuilding them youself, unless it's a rare vehicle where rebuilds are NLA.

WARNING: When you pump them back out, have some pads, etc... between the pistons (all four of them) because otherwise, you might blow the pistons right out of the bores.

But again, you'll have to (when you have time) look (or have a more knowledgable friend look?) at the calipers. From your description, it sounds like they DID clean them up. Hopefully, they even lubed them.

What you could do with relative ease (at least, on a 2x4 F-150) is back out the pins and look them over, as well as the bores they go into. If they're rusted (or undersized from rust/not smooth) they can cause binding. Again, someone who's actually done an F-250 will have to confirm, but on a F-150, there's parts that need to be lubed for proper operation. Not OVER-LUBED, either, but judiciously.

Of course, it could very well be the pistons themselves.

If they did not verify the piston-function, then I believe my original "approach" would work for you-again, ASSUMING insufficient caliper cleanup is involved. In other words, if they'd simply suggested selling you quality-rebuilt calipers, none of this would have happened.

Someone else will have to comment on what specific brake hardware on an F-250 is considered "consumable" and should be replaced after 15 years. So far, my experience has been with F-150 brakes.

Best of luck,

Big Six

 

Okay, that clears it up. Thanks for ALL the info; the "back and forth" procedure is one thing we can definitely pester them on. And that leads to another thing that's been vexing me -- why weren't they binding so badly before the pad/rotor work? I'm sure the shop will challenge us with that. Then it occurred to me that the pistons are now in different positions; maybe they worked better when they were "out" further with the old pads/rotors. And indeed, if he'd done the back-and-forth procedure, he might well have discoverd that the pistons didn't move as well back in the positions they would be with the fatter pads/rotors.

The pins are pretty easy to reach on the 250; looks like I could pull one at a time without even pulling a wheel.

 

Update: shop sent the tech AND his manager out to the house this morning, so the tech could ride back with my wife, and demonstrated the brakes dragging as they heat up. When they got there, they discovered one of the rotors was blued. With some wrangling, she got the tech in her corner, and convinced the manager that all pads and both rotors needed to be warrantied out. So we're getting the calipers done as well, and new wheel bearings, at our expense, and the rest at theirs.

Bigsix, thanks a MILLION (or should I say thanks 300? ) for everything. It helped us make a convincing case, and hopefully get it resolved.

 

madpogue,

You're welcome a MILLION, man! I gotta tell you, it's really satisfying to actually be able to help someone, in such a situation. Too often, for any number of reasons (some not as worthy as others) it seems good intentions/advice either fall on deaf ears, or worse. LOL

And thanks for the quick feedback on your situation.

One question: are they rebuilding the calipers on-site, or ordering in some good-quality rebuilds? Just curious, as it was my understanding that most shops don't do the rebuilding themselves anymore. Not that it's complicated, but I'm not just sure what's involved in honing (or boring/sleeving?) the bores, etc.... If they do them all the time, then I wouldn't worry about it. If this is a special project (rebuilding the calipers themselves) then...I dunno. I might be more comfortable if they just ordered good-quality rebuilds, say from a NAPA store. Just something to consider.

Oh! And I made a mistake here, when I said this:

I'm glad you didn't try this, as the pistons might still have blown out of the caliper, if you just stuck brake pads in the caliper, without the added thickness of a rotor between them. A piece of wood in there would work, as long as it was thick enough to keep the pistons in the bores. Glad you handled it the way you did! LOL

I'm really glad it worked out for you, guy. Sounds like your wife was pretty effective too!

Thanks again for your kind words--much appreciated.

Big Six