460 timing problem
Thread Starter
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Tuned
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: Carmichael, CA
460 timing problem
Today i decided to check my timing and the truck was running 20bdc... Anyways, I pulled the gray little plug like some other thread said to do that's next to the giant plug on the dizzy. Then started the truck and set it to 12bdc. Shut it off and started it again. Shut off again then put the gray plug back in. But I think the electronic timing advance keeps putting it to 30bdc every time i put the plug back in. What Am I doing wrong please help! 
Thread Starter
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Tuned
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: Carmichael, CA
How is the computer doing a good job if it's advancing it 20 degrees over? When I run it with the plug out it has good acceleration etc, with it in i can punch it and it's not all too well. And the point is how do i get it to stay at 12degrees once the plug is put back in, or do i set it with the plug in place?
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
It is not supposed to stay @ 12*.
With my vacuum advance setup you plug the vacuum line to the distributor and set the base timing. Then you connect the vacuum and re adjust the idle speed to 800.
Look for the emissions calibration sticker under the hood somewhere. It will spell out the proper method and parameters.
I think you're doing it right, though 12* sounds a little high.
My '87 truck calls for 8*.
With my vacuum advance setup you plug the vacuum line to the distributor and set the base timing. Then you connect the vacuum and re adjust the idle speed to 800.
Look for the emissions calibration sticker under the hood somewhere. It will spell out the proper method and parameters.
I think you're doing it right, though 12* sounds a little high.
My '87 truck calls for 8*.
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Sounds like your EEC system is working like it's supposed to. The static timing is what the system uses for starting. That is why you pull the small plug (it is called a SPOUT connector for Spark OUT). Under no or light load, the EEC can run the timing up as much as 60 degrees BTDC. Lean mixtures, EGR and low compression allow this to work.
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Tuned
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Carmichael, CA
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Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 1
I dont know about all that timing, Let me ask you this, when you accelerate, does it ping??? can you hear it detonating??
I usually get the vehicles in my garage, when specs arent right. Like yours.
Here is what I recomend. Find out, where timing is supposed to be all in. Here is an example.
A 351w at 15 to 1 compression, and a specific cam, is best when 36 deg is acheived at 2600 rpm's So for this engine (351) 36 is all in. raising the engine to 2600 rpms. You adj the timing accordingly.
If your engine doesnt detonate, you might be fine. Does the timing advance when you give it slight throttle? say raise it to 1500 rpm's and check timing as it raises... The curve.
You stated your performance isnt great when the plug is in, that tells me the cylinders are hitting early. Try setting the dist at 6 deg, then see where the timing is when the pkug is in. and check drivability then also.
I usually get the vehicles in my garage, when specs arent right. Like yours.
Here is what I recomend. Find out, where timing is supposed to be all in. Here is an example.
A 351w at 15 to 1 compression, and a specific cam, is best when 36 deg is acheived at 2600 rpm's So for this engine (351) 36 is all in. raising the engine to 2600 rpms. You adj the timing accordingly.
If your engine doesnt detonate, you might be fine. Does the timing advance when you give it slight throttle? say raise it to 1500 rpm's and check timing as it raises... The curve.
You stated your performance isnt great when the plug is in, that tells me the cylinders are hitting early. Try setting the dist at 6 deg, then see where the timing is when the pkug is in. and check drivability then also.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,056
Likes: 8
From: Union, Washington
I dont know about all that timing, Let me ask you this, when you accelerate, does it ping??? can you hear it detonating??
I usually get the vehicles in my garage, when specs arent right. Like yours.
Here is what I recomend. Find out, where timing is supposed to be all in. Here is an example.
A 351w at 15 to 1 compression, and a specific cam, is best when 36 deg is acheived at 2600 rpm's So for this engine (351) 36 is all in. raising the engine to 2600 rpms. You adj the timing accordingly.
If your engine doesnt detonate, you might be fine. Does the timing advance when you give it slight throttle? say raise it to 1500 rpm's and check timing as it raises... The curve.
You stated your performance isnt great when the plug is in, that tells me the cylinders are hitting early. Try setting the dist at 6 deg, then see where the timing is when the pkug is in. and check drivability then also.
I usually get the vehicles in my garage, when specs arent right. Like yours.
Here is what I recomend. Find out, where timing is supposed to be all in. Here is an example.
A 351w at 15 to 1 compression, and a specific cam, is best when 36 deg is acheived at 2600 rpm's So for this engine (351) 36 is all in. raising the engine to 2600 rpms. You adj the timing accordingly.
If your engine doesnt detonate, you might be fine. Does the timing advance when you give it slight throttle? say raise it to 1500 rpm's and check timing as it raises... The curve.
You stated your performance isnt great when the plug is in, that tells me the cylinders are hitting early. Try setting the dist at 6 deg, then see where the timing is when the pkug is in. and check drivability then also.
Set the base timing to what the spec is (either on the valve cover or on the radiator shround) and I will bet it runs better. These engine have no knock sensor so they don't retard the timing when the engine knocks because of poor fuel or in your case to much initial timing.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
No, not necessarily bad at all.
If an engine would run well with one set ignition timing there would be no need for things like centrifugal and vacuum advance.
Your computer is just doing what it is programmed to do.
By unplugging the spout to set the base timing you are removing any influence it may have.
Load, operating temperature, RPM's, throttle position, fuel octane, dynamic compression and a host of other factors figure into the equation.
The engineers at Ford spent a lot of time figuring out what would work best under most driving conditions with a stock engine and EPA regulations before they released it to the public.
If your truck doesn't run well when tuned as the sticker says there's a possibility the 20 year old harmonic balancer has slipped and the timing marks are out of position.
If an engine would run well with one set ignition timing there would be no need for things like centrifugal and vacuum advance.
Your computer is just doing what it is programmed to do.
By unplugging the spout to set the base timing you are removing any influence it may have.
Load, operating temperature, RPM's, throttle position, fuel octane, dynamic compression and a host of other factors figure into the equation.
The engineers at Ford spent a lot of time figuring out what would work best under most driving conditions with a stock engine and EPA regulations before they released it to the public.
If your truck doesn't run well when tuned as the sticker says there's a possibility the 20 year old harmonic balancer has slipped and the timing marks are out of position.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 1
Set the base timing to what the spec is (either on the valve cover or on the radiator shround) and I will bet it runs better. These engine have no knock sensor so they don't retard the timing when the engine knocks because of poor fuel or in your case to much initial timing.
Did you read his post??? or just talk with out... 
He said it doesnt run good, with it set at specs, with the grey plug installed. That usually meens, there is an issue. With out trouble shooting, and more input, the cause is unknown yet.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 1
How is the computer doing a good job if it's advancing it 20 degrees over? When I run it with the plug out it has good acceleration etc, with it in i can punch it and it's not all too well. And the point is how do i get it to stay at 12degrees once the plug is put back in, or do i set it with the plug in place?
As previously stated, I would try backing off the initial timing, to see if setting it at say 8 deg would yeild better result, when the grey plug is then plugged in.
1 more question, do your timing marks jump around??
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Another good idea!
No telling how many miles are on his timing chain.
I never thought about this, but then I would never let it get that far.
No telling how many miles are on his timing chain.
I never thought about this, but then I would never let it get that far.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 1
There are so many reasons, that could cause this. The only way to get to a reasonable conclusion is with more data. Even the bearing wear in the distributer. Or another sensor sending bad info to the computer causing the advanced situation.??? The list goes on and on.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,056
Likes: 8
From: Union, Washington
"Then started the truck and set it to 12bdc."
Not a damn word about that actually being the spec. I doubt 12° is spec since the computer is dragging the timing so far advanced. To much advance and they run like crap. You need some more experience, both with reading and engine tuning, plus recognizing that your elders and betters know a lot more than you do.